Posted on 01/28/2005 11:07:21 AM PST by ultima ratio
More nonsense. You're sucking down the SSPX Kool-Aid, murphE. It's sad to watch.
You forgot about intention, which I know sinkspur presumes of every priest. I do not. I have heard too many blatantly heterodox things from priests in my diocese to presume that they have the right intention, and I did much "parish shopping" as well as taking classes that taught heresy offered by the same instructors who teach the seminarians.
Our nuptial Mass, for instance, due to us baking our own bread (in 1984 when we had "no idea")was invalid, for instance.
That comes under the topic of, if I only knew then what I know now. I have a lot of those stories myself.
I pretty much do believe it. One validly offered Holy Sacrifice has infinite graces. The fact that there was never a time when there were no TLMs being offered may be the only reason that the world is still here. Anyway barring private revelation, (and please Lord spare me from that burden) we won't know for sure this side of eternity.
You continue to mischaracterize "intention." Even heretics who do as the Church does celebrate valid Masses.
Stop spreading your erroneous interpretation of "intention."
You're getting good with this hyperbole.
Only if they intend to.
"You forgot about intention, which I know sinkspur presumes of every priest. I do not. I have heard too many blatantly heterodox things from priests in my diocese to presume that they have the right intention, and I did much "parish shopping" as well as taking classes that taught heresy offered by the same instructors who teach the seminarians."
A priest, if he says the words of consecration unadulterated, may presume to have the intention to do as the Church does. Even with obstinate heretics (which most priests are NOT! Some have been merely misinstructed), the Church supplies. Even if his belief in transubstantiation is lacking, it is Christ who performs through the priest.
That's just it. It's not my opinion.
Look around you at the condition of the Church. The Holy Ghost has rendered His verdict. Don't blame the rest of us for noticing.
Mainline Protestants are going Novus Ordo because it is what they once were. Legal and illegal immigrants also boost the numbers.
It's a shell game. Those numbers do not reflect on practicing Catholics either.
Don't bother "telling" me what I believe in your fit of anger to deny the obvious. As I said before, my "opinion" is simply an honest observation of the Church which few of you are willing to take, mostly out of fear.
You have a puffed up sense of your own importance to decree the state of my soul. Last I heard pride was the most deadly of sins.
The 15 million member increase in the Church was worldwide. "Immigrants" do not figure in these numbers.
"As I said before, my "opinion" is simply an honest observation of the Church which few of you are willing to take, mostly out of fear."
And to what are we fearful? The fact the traditional parishes are making tremendous headway, especially in the U.S. AND they are in union with the Pope (See Vatican I)? Is that what we are fearful of? Or is it just others and not me?
"You have a puffed up sense of your own importance to decree the state of my soul. Last I heard pride was the most deadly of sins."
I have no idea to which post you refer. I just revisited my posts to you and saw nothing there that questioned the state of your soul. If you are feeling guilty about something, then perhaps you should do an examination of conscience.
But anyone, NOT JUST YOU, who denies grace flows in the Church and outside of the Church (due to, and from, the Church, however)is plainly put, a heretic. If you don't believe that (even though you plainly stated there is "no grace in the Novus Ordo church"), then you shouldn't be bothered.
You have no idea what I am referring to?
Read the last paragraph of your last post to me. That is arrogance, self-righteousness and pride at its best.
Like I said, Protestants are converting in droves while their denominations collapse. The Novus Ordo is not threatening because it is what they once were.
More important, where are the cradle Catholics? A few stick it in the N.O. while others flee to Tradition, Orthodoxy, non-denom bible churches, even Judaism or simply stay home. I can name more non-practicing cradle Catholics than practicing ones.
The Novus Ordo does not teach or support the Catholicism of centuries.
Why should following Christ be "threatening"? The Protestants in our RCIA program are not converting because of the Mass, primarily, but because they believe the Catholic Church possesses the fullness of the Faith they've been seeking. They would convert regardless of which Mass was offered.
The Novus Ordo does not teach or support the Catholicism of centuries.
It certainly does. You just refuse to acknowledge it.
"That is arrogance, self-righteousness and pride at its best."
Oh I see. So you want to read "tone" into the post. I get it. You leap from thought to thought with no connection whatsoever, make rash judgment after rash judgment about my motivations, which are not clear, at least to me in my posts, then you want to get emotional and call me arrogant, self-righteous and prideful, based upon what... Come on. Go down the threads and pull them out and paste them for me. Whatever you have accused me of, please back it up with facts.
I have specific words from you above that deny that ANY GRACES flow from the Novus Ordo Church. You said that. Not me. If you really hold it and believe it and continue to spread that to others, then it is my obligation to inform you that it is not in keeping with the Catholic Faith.
In other words, it is a heresy. Anyone who obstinately holds that view is a heretic--you or anyone else.
No, I read your words which are hostile, conflicted and non-productive.
Go excommunicate someone else. Apparently the Lay Magisterium has received yet another charism in the "spirit of Vatican II."
Present day N.O. Catholics are clueless about Catholicism before 1960. It is as if it did not exist. You can see it on this site which draws the ones who are better informed than most.
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LOL!!! gbcdoj is the single most well-informed poster on the religion forum, and he is Novus Ordo.
Most Catholics are not well-informed about Church history, it is true. But that has always been the case, even in the pre-Vatican II Church. So, I'm not sure what knowledge of the pre-1960 Church has to do with anything, except as a point of propaganda and a "see how much better and smarter we are" attitude that you trads constantly exhibit.
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