Posted on 01/28/2005 11:07:21 AM PST by ultima ratio
Yes please post your sermons.
Apparently you have not read Veritatis Splendor". As a deacon you really should be familiar with it. It has much to say about the fundamental option,consequentialism and proportionalism.
Now that I surmise that you have not read it,I understand why you and I are seldom on the same page.
Most of the great saints were stigmatists and visionaries during their lifetime. They were living testaments to mystical union with God and inspiration to other Catholics. Think Padre Pio.
Do you get it? This is not that difficult to understand.
"Most of the great saints were stigmatists and visionaries during their lifetime."
Everyone who is in heaven is a saint whether he is canonized by the Church or not. I venture to guess that most of them were not "stigmatists nor visionaries." In fact, most saints in Butler's "Lives of the Saints," which would have all been either the Traditional Latin Mass or Eastern-rite Divine Liturgies were not "stigmatists nor visionaries" either.
Since most of the people born after 1970 have not died, it would be difficult to evaluate how many saints the Novus Ordo has produced.
Funny, I thought that God produced saints. I didn't know it was a particular rite of Mass that did so. Not so difficult to understand now, is it?
I've read Veritatis Splendor, but I'd wager nothing in it is among the reasons you and I sometimes disagree.
In the interest of truth,I should amend discussions to read: "one or two,one line exchanges".
"The Novus Ordo has zip, zero, nada.
"There is little grace in the post-conciliar Church. The Holy Ghost has rendered His verdict."
Well, I for one, as well as many of my friends and families who homeschool, found at least enough grace in the Novus Ordo Church to continue our trek to Tradition. Even the traditional saints and teaching of the Church recognizes grace is found outside of its visible confines.
Your opinion is your opinion. It just happens to be unprovable, and in direct contradiction to my experience, as well as traditional Catholic teaching. Good thing you are not responsible for leading souls...
That's just it Mershon, Our Lord may have seen fit to provide grace to you in spite of the NO, not necessarily from it. Perhaps it may be just because someone was interceding on your behalf before His throne, or perhaps because He knew you were actively seeking truth.
Your opinion is your opinion. It just happens to be unprovable...
Yes, but some opinions are more reasonable than others because they are compatible with what is objective reality.
The only "objective reality" is that "there is no grace found in the Novus Ordo" fits the integrist pattern around here: tear down the Novus Ordo in order to build up the Tridentine Mass.
More propaganda from the "we resist you to your face" crowd.
From the article:
"Ironically, the same "liturgical abuses" I once battled against, I now consider myself indebted to, since my efforts led me to something truly worth fighting for — the Tridentine Mass. Like a number others I've talked to since, the initial attraction was not born of an innate preference for the Latin language or attachment to the 1962 Missal."
This is exactly the way I came to know Tradition. I would not have even entertained the idea of going to the TLM mass had it not been for a new priest in my old parish who systematically began to remove any vestiges of Catholicism from the liturgy in a rather abrupt and dramatic fashion. It seems when it is done slowly, over time one can get desensitized to it and gradually accept it. Most people in my parish welcomed these changes, the 10 to 20 percent who objected were ridiculed or ignored until they gradually left the parish. Sadly, many of these people were the daily mass attendees, the ones leading the devotional societies, and the ones who volunteered an enormous amount of their time to support the maintenance of the parish.
Although I was quite upset at what was happening to my once beloved parish at the time, I realize now that it was actually a grace, to move me to know Tradition and the TLM. I will forever be grateful to God for allowing this to happen, and then putting knowledgeable people in my path to help me before I came to the point of despair.
I realize, of course, I did nothing to merit this grace, and my heart aches for those who are still in the position I was in before it. I pray that they be given the graces that I have been given, before they lose all hope or the ability to recognize it as grace and respond to it.
No one needs tear down the NO, it's on auto destruct. If anyone is helping to speed up the process, it's not the Traditional Catholics, it's the liberal and dissenting clergy and laity constantly introducing novelties to suit their ever changing desires and whims. Traditional Catholics are just reporting the events as they occur and drawing the reasonable conclusions from them.
Number of Catholics rises by 15 million.
Almost all of them are Novus Ordo Catholics.
No grace effectively means you deny the validity of the Novus Ordo Missae. That is the bottom line. If that is the case, you deny the indefectibility of the Church since the Church has authoritatively said this rite is a Catholic rite of Mass, the "norm" in the Church currently, like it or not.
Those who deny that grace flows "in the Novus Ordo church" make broad-sweeping opinions that are not Church teaching. In fact, they deny Church teaching regarding indefectibility. I would highly recommend you reading Michael Davies' book on the indefectibility of the Church. Most traditional Catholics might personally prefer the Traditional Mass and sacraments and liturgical calendar, and may believe they are objectively better for the Church, but they do NOT deny the validity of the Novus Ordo NOR that "no graces" flow from the Novus Ordo Church. Denial of indefectibility and denial of grace being outside of the SSPX or independents, is heretical--simple as that.
Well said.
There is no way of proving this, but it could be solely due to the increase in the number of Traditional Latin Masses actually being offered today, or the sufferings offered up by the Catholic martyrs in China and elsewhere, that is the causing of any increase of grace throughout the whole Church that you think the numbers are indicating.
Or maybe it's the common perception that it's just not too demanding to be a Catholic today anymore so more people are willing to give it a go.
I did not say there was "no" grace in the "NO". That may be C o D's position.
Everything else you said are illogical conclusions based on an erroneous presupposition.
I do assert that the majority of NO masses as actually offered, (or rather performed, choreographed, orchestrated, produced?) in my diocese are most probably invalid, and even the few that may be valid are not necessarily a pleasing offering to the Most High.
"I do assert that the majority of NO masses as actually offered, (or rather performed, choreographed, orchestrated, produced?) in my diocese are most probably invalid, and even the few that may be valid are not necessarily a pleasing offering to the Most High."
These are two completely different issues. I do know things are very bad in some dioceses. However, the priest either has to be using invalid matter OR not saying the words of consecration correctly for it to be an invalid Mass. I doubt this happens in most cases, but I do know it happens. Our nuptial Mass, for instance, due to us baking our own bread (in 1984 when we had "no idea")was invalid, for instance.
I doubt that in most cases the priest does not say the words of consecration correctly OR uses invalid matter.
As for whether or not they are a pleasing offering to God... Well, I can tell you that any priest offering Holy Masses WITHOUT incardination or faculties is certainly NOT pleasing God either.
Even you don't believe this.
You'll twist yourself in knots to avoid giving any credit whatsoever to the Novus Ordo Mass.
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