[nopardons]

The so called "RAPTURE" is only believed in by some Christians,so I wouldn't worry about it,if I were you.The rest of us believe in the Second Coming,the return of the Messiah,which no man knows the time it will take place and which is what GOD says,in the New Testament.

Since the Muslims don't believe in the Messiah,but Jews and Christians do,Muslims probably won't get taken to heaven,when HE comes.

[trickyricky]

Zechariah
13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine
hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in
the house of my friends.

13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is
my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the
sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little
ones.

13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two
parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left
therein.

13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them
as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call
on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and
they shall say, The LORD is my God.

This is Christ's return. The Jewish remnant recognize Jesus at his return
after Armageddon by His nail-pierced hands.
The remnant is saved to go through the millenial reign of Christ on Earth.

[steenkeenbadges]

The Bible is a Jewish book, cover to cover. In it you will find promise after promise to Israel; numerous covenants; prophecy (history written in advance), and most of all, G-d's faithful and undying love for His people, the Jews.

However, there is not much hope of your understanding it all unless you are willing to read - without bias -the entire Torah, Prophets and the B'rit Chadasha (renewed convenant).

In Isaiah 53, a portion of scripture that is rarely if ever read in synagogue, the prophet speaks of the suffering servant (Yeshua - which translated means 'and he will save his people from their sin').

If you will read and consider who this servant might be, comparing both Jewish writings AND respected Christian commentaries, you will be hard pressed to come to any conclusion other than that Yeshua is the Messiah. No other explanation is borne out by Scripture, and the Rabinnic explanations generally obfuscate the issue and generally contradict themselves in the process.

Regarding the Rapture (harpatzo in the Greek, meaning to "catch away") it is prophesied to occur "when the fullness of the gentiles be come in".

The nation of Israel was to be "a light to the Gentiles", but they failed. The church is supposed to bless Israel and pray for the peace of Jerusalem, and they also failed. The church is trending that way now, but many still follow a "replacement theology" wherein the term "Israel" is spiritualized and the church has redefined itself as "spiritual Israel" - even though Romans 9,10 & 11 make it unmistakably clear that G-d will never forsake his people. The book of Daniel, most notably Chapters 9 and 12, Daniel is given visions from G-d, through His messenger Michael, of the unfolding history up to and including the "end-times". And in Chap. 12, Verse 1, Michael says "and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a naiton even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.Which book would that be? The Lamb's Book of Life - written in Yeshua's blood that was shed for the whole world, as well as for His people Israel, most of whome, heartbreakingly, rejected His messiaship.

The "time of trouble" is the "time of Jacob's trouble - a time the church refers to as the great tribulation. It is at the end of that time that the plan of redemption will come to its fulfilment in Yeshua's return to claim of his people - those who have accepted his identity as Redeemer and L-d of L-ds, the one who reconciles the world to the G-dhead. At that time there will be neither Jew nor Gentile, but rather only each individual's belief in Him, and in His purpose for being born, crucified and resurrected.

If you will examine ALL of the evidence, you will be able to come to your own conclusion. Hope this helps.

[kosta50]

Ultimately, I hope us Jews and Christians both make it together to the promised land (and only the Muslims are sent to hell!)

Real Christians pray that all people are saved. Jesus did not teach us to pray our enemies go to hell.

[raygun]

2/3 of the Jews are not killed during the rapture. You're confusing different events. The rapture marks the end of the present age with the translation of the true church into the Lord's presence in the clouds. This doctrine is one of the major considerations of the Eschatology of the New Testament (Jn 14:1-3; 2 Thes 2:1; 1 Thes 4:13-18; 1 Cor 1:8; 15:51,52; Phil. 3:20,21; 2 Cor 5:1-9). The major issues with respect to the rapture are the premillenialists who debate who is raptured, and pretribulationalists, midtribulationist posttribulationists raise issue with when the rapture occurs. Also there is the non-literal view of the second advent.

This is by those who dispute a literal, bodily, personal, return to earth by Christ. Frankly, this is a result of disbelief in the Word of God (or the spiritualizing method of interpretation). The postmillenial view, popular among covenant theologians, teaches that the world through preaching of the Gospel will be Christianized and brought to sumission to the Gospel before the return of Christ. Those who hold to this view while holding to a literal second, follow the Old Testament teaching on the nature of the millenium kingdom. Amillenialists hold that there is no literal millenium on earth followed by a second advent. All the prophecies concerning the kingdom are being fullfilled in the inter-advent period spiritually by the church. In its most general characterization, amillenialists deny a literal 1000 year reign of Christ upon the earth.

Two events are occuring in parallel post-rapture. For the church the first to occur is the judgement seat of Christ (also known as the bema seat), and then the marriage of the Lamb. Simultaneous with this is the Tribulation that occurs on earth. Many things occur during that time; the Book of Revelation illuminates that time in great detail.

Frankly, all these issues can be resolved through the use of proper hermeneutic and exegetical (reading out of, expounded by) interpretation of scripture. A no more satisfactory resolution can be made than a pre-trib rapture with a pre-millenial second advent of Christ. Any other doctrine is flawed, and is a result of improper hermeneutic and or an eisegetical (reading into or applying onto) interpretation of scripture.

[Rockingham]

Do not embrace "The Rapture" as settled Christian doctrine. It originated with a handful of marginal 19th Century Protestant ministers but has been recently taken up and popularized by evangelicals and amplified by their vigorous publishing and entertainment media.

There is a great deal of exegesis and commentary behind "The Rapture," but thin support in the text of the Bible. Indeed, "The Rapture" is rejected by the Roman Catholic Church and its putative source, the Apocalypse, is not regarded as canonical and hence is seen as unreliable as a guide in matters of faith. Here is a short take against the validity of "The Rapture" as Christian doctrine: http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0211/opinion/olson.html And the author's website" http://www.carl-olson.com/wcblb_home.html Personally, I am inclined to believe that the Irish nuns of my youth had it right: God will one day end the world by fire, with the exception of faithful Ireland, which will mercifully slip into the sea.

Your personal accommodation between Christianity and Judaism reflects a larger trend that intellectually traces back to Franz Rosenzweig in his treatise, the Star of Redemption, in the early part of the last century. In essence, he contended that God's unique relationship with the Jewish people endures, but that Christianity was God's extension of it to the rest of the world. Thus "Christianity is Judaism for the Gentiles." Rosenzweig, a noted German Jewish intellectual, came close to converting to Christianity.

Rosensweig's ideas were popularized by conservative Jewish scholar Will Herberg in the US in the 50's and 60's. He unsuccessfully argued against Jewish hostility to Christian expression in the public square on the basis that it was foolish and damaging to Jews in the long run.

More recently, one can look to leading conservative magazines dealing with religious issues, Commentary (Jewish) and First Things (Christian, with strong Catholic influence). There is a consistent rejection of slights and slurs against Christianity in Commentary and a similar rejection of slights and slurs against Judaism in First Things. The sense of mutual respect and support between Christianity and Judaism in both publications and elsewhere is sincere and thorough.

In a profound sense, America leads the world not just in the religiosity of it people, but in the good relations between most faiths. Islam is a new and uncertain element, its place and intentions clouded by Wahhabist extremism, terrorism, and the rise of political Islam and hatred of Israel and Jews as a defining feature of the Islamic identity.

[Talking_Mouse]

bookmark for latter

[maestro]

.......[I truly beleive in my Jewish fate(?) as I have been raised Jewish(?), but my mom is Christian(?)].......

Interesting.......

What do you have to say about the Hebrew Prophet Jonah, and The Book of Jonah?

:-)

[Talking_Mouse]

Mike10542 while everyone is arguing over what is the truth about scripture only Raygun has tried to answer your question. Let me fill in a little more about what many Evangelical Christians believe about the End Times.

The starting point for many Evangelical Christians of the End Times is the Rapture, when Christ comes, like a thief in the night, to take the Church away before the Wrath of God is pored out upon the world. After the Rapture, which according to which Evangelical Christian you talk to can include all the children all over the world who are not old enough to know right from wrong, people are pretty confused about what has just happened.

A ruler arises who deals with that crisis and brings peace and prosperity to the world. This ruler is the Antichrist. He sets up a world government, and for 3 1/2 years life is good - peace and prosperity.

During this 3 1/2 years 144,000 (12,000 from each of the 12 Tribes) Jewish people come to know Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. These 144,000 then go forth and evangelize the Jewish people. According to many Evangelical Christians the vast majority of people who come to believe in Jesus during the tribulation are Jewish. The 144,000 are sent to the House of Israel, not to the gentiles.

After the 3 1/2 years of peace there are 3 1/2 years of wrath. What starts this time is the Antichrist, in the rebuilt Temple, ( which is rebuilt before or after the rapture depending on which group you talk to) declares himself to be God. 1/2 to 3/4 of the human race dies during this 3 1/2 years. The earth is basically trashed: no pure water, nothing can grow, 1/3 of the light of the sun, moon and stars is reduced by smoke or pollution (again depending on who you talk to), massive earthquakes, the oceans are poisoned.

At the end of the 3 1/2 years the Antichrist and his forces are surrounding Jerusalem, ready to destroy it because it is the capital of the Jewish people. The 144,000 are there, and many of the people they evangelized, who have not died in the tribulation, are in Jerusalem. Jesus returns, with the armies of heaven, and destroyers the Antichrist and all of his armies. Then comes the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth.

This scenario is the normally understood chain of events that many Evangelical Christians believe will happen at the End of Time. I am not going to argue the validity of this scenario with anyone.

[NYer]

I just finished reading an outstanding book entitled "Salvation is From the Jews". The purpose of the book is:

The purpose of the book is to give the Christian reader a deeper understanding of Judaism, both as a religion in itself and as a central component of Christian salvation, and to reveal to the Jewish reader the incomprehensible importance and glory which Jews and Judaism most truly have; a glory and importance which is only revealed in the light of the Catholic faith. It traces the role of Judaism and the Jewish people in God’s plan for the salvation of all mankind from Abraham through the Second Coming, as revealed by the Catholic faith and by a thoughtful examination of history, showing the infinite nobility and importance which Judaism has as God’s own religion, and the unique and central role it has in the destiny of all of creation. Repeatedly it demonstrates that rather than debasing Judaism or Jews, true Christianity ennobles them to a far greater degree than even Judaism itself does. It documents that throughout history attacks on Jews and Judaism have been rooted not in Christianity, but in the most anti-Christian of forces.

The structure of the book is chronological, tracing the interaction between God and man which takes place through Judaism and the Jewish people. The analysis is woven around the interplay of God, the Jewish people, the Messiah, the Gentiles, and the adversary of man’s salvation. Central themes include the Messianic expectation in Jewish theology, anti-Semitism and the Holocaust in the economy of salvation, and the roles played by the State of Israel, Islam, and Arab anti-Semitism in the Second Coming.

The author, Roy Schoeman, has set up an informative web site with links to online resources for his book.

SALVATION IS FROM THE JEWS

[fish hawk]

This subject is too complex to just write a simple answer here. I recommend you read "MARANATHA" (a definitive study of the rapture of the church) by Renald Showers. It explains everything you would need to know. It uses scripture with reason and knowledge.

Look into this and study for yourself and don't listen to people like Bandaneira. There is actual proof in scripture about the Rapture.

[Aliska]

I don't know how the end times will play out with the Jews and Christians.

I think Christians should treat Jews with love and respect unconditionally and vice versa. I certainly don't like the idea of supporting Jews *just because* it fits a Christian interpretation which could be incorrect, at least in part, because that is self-serving and hypocritical.

I do not wish decent Muslims to go to hell. I don't really wish anyone burns forever. I do hope that there will be some kind of separation of the good and the bad though as part of what makes life so difficult is living in fear of anyone who would do anyone harm unless it is necessary in a just war.

Just some thoughts. If I didn't choose to be a Christian, I would choose to be a Jew. I wish that the practice of Christianity could be more "Jewish". I personally wish we could worship more closely to how Jesus worshipped only with his addition of the Eucharist and other early Christian modifications such as lessening of dietary restrictions. According to my belief, animal sacrifices were no longer necessary after Jesus' death, but being a Jew, he would have supported that.

As a Catholic who is practicing again, I can't resolve how we can obey the commandment of keeping the sabbath and at the same time meet on the "Lord's day" (Sunday) for Christian worship. It isn't practical to do both unless you become part of a sabbatarian group which doesn't exactly fit the bill either.

I do look forward to Jesus' return and hope that all things are restored eventually in a manner that is most pleasing to God, no matter whose ox gets gored in the process.

Jesus did keep a Saturday sabbath and was a practicing Jew until he was crucified. I doubt he ever ate pork, but I believe it is permissible for Christians because of Peter's vision.

I do understand that with the inclusion of the gentiles in Christianity, some rules had to be modified, but sometimes I think they changed too many things over the centuries. Some of my thinking would make some Catholics, Orthodox and even Jews upset.

There are aspects of the Catholic religion that I have mental reservations about. I wouldn't have liked to be Jewish and watched them killing all those animals for sacrifices. I feed sparrows on my front porch and if I killed one (which would be unthinkable), I would be considered a mental risk. Two birds were sacrificed after Jesus was born. I think it was sparrows but maybe it was doves. I can't remember.

But it all gets too complicated, so I just do the best I can and hope for the best for all of us. There are a lot of things I don't understand and don't make a whole lot of sense at this late date and I'm getting too old to make sense of some things. But I'm not getting to old to think and wonder about things, things that a lot of people don't think about.

[Aliska]

Just one more comment. I never understood why any Jew would voluntarily convert to the Catholic (or Orthodox) religion after the way they were treated historically. There is a book I learned about a few months ago.

I have been wanting to read it for awhile so I ordered it from Ignatius Press for 20.95 including shipping. It's by Roy Schoeman (grew up Jewish in France I think) and titled "Salvation is from the Jews."

Author biography is here in .pdf format

Just in case anyone finds it interesting.

[mxdmta4]

Dear Mike:
I am so glad to hear your interest in your two faiths. God has a plan for the Jews in the endtimes. Even in the Christian faith Israel remains God's chosen people. We Christians have been adopted into God's family. I encourage you to go to the Jews for Jesus website. I have read their book regarding how they came about. They are a wonderful group and can help you in your search for the Truth. May your quest be blessed by our great I AM.

[1 spark]

If you are a Christian, you cannot look at those outside your faith as being "saved"/ right with God/ making it to heaven. If you are a Jew the good of all nations are right with God. That aside, if you are trying to choose between the 2 faiths, you should study both the Jewish and Christian interpretation of scripture and decide for yourself which rings true to you.

These are just a few sources that opened my eyes:

http://www.geocities.com/Metzad/

http://www.messiahtruth.com/response.html

http://www.mindspring.com/~sjayg4/index.htm

May God bless you in your search.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Correct me if I'm wrong but if your mom isn't jewish then, according to Rabbinic Judaism, you arent either.

[Buggman]

Hi, Mike. First let me say Happy Hanukkah. I appreciate the nature and tone of your questions.

It's important to point out in this discussion that the idea that 2/3rds of the Jewish people would be slain in the End Times is not a New Testament teaching, but comes directly from the Tanakh, specifically, Zechariah 13. These deaths would be by the wars and persecutions of a false messiah (the Antichrist, in Christian parlance). From that perspective, you might want to do some digging in your own Scriptures and rabbis' commentaries on the End Times, especially those dealing with the aforementioned chapter, the book of Daniel, and Ezekiel 38-39.

There is, of course, a great deal of controversy among Christians about which prophecies are yet future and how the Second Coming of Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus Christ) will come about. If you want to know the gist of these debates, I'll be happy to post a summary here when I get home from work; if not, don't worry about it.

For my part, I believe that Christians and Jews who refuse to worship the Antichrist will be persecuted together. After a time of testing, Yeshua will appear in the clouds of the sky to ressurrect the dead and gather the Church to Himself. The Day of the Lord that the prophets wrote of will then commence. I believe that at that time, those Jews who have not already come to Yeshua as their Messiah but who also did not worship the Antichrist in place of Adonai will be left behind, but sealed and protected through the Day of the Lord. Then the Messiah will return, gather the remnant of Israel, fight the Last Battle, and rule the world as a distinctly Jewish king and Messiah from David's throne in Jerusalem, as the prophets declare.

That's the short-short version, of course. If you'd like to engage in further conversation about this, I'd be glad to answer your questions here, or you can Freepmail me if you'd like to talk more privately.

[walden]

Your question applies to the most mystical and difficult to understand book of the New Testament, the book of Revelation. Basically, all good Jews will be saved, just like all true believers in Christ will be saved, and all evil people are in serious trouble. ;) All of the rest (not evil, but don't know God) will be judged by their actions during their lifetime.

Other than that, I take little away from Revelation. In one of the Gospels Jesus says that only God knows when those end times will come, that as the son, He doesn't know. Which tells me that Christians aren't supposed to spend any time worrying about it-- we're just supposed to get on with our work right know, following Christ, doing His will.

Does that help?

[Twinkie]

There's a verse of Scripture that says, "and so all of
Israel shall be saved" . . beyond that I can't figure
a lot of the book of Revelation out . . the Lord will have
to take care of me . . .

[Ciexyz]

As a Christian believer, a committed Christian, I have to say that this whole question is "too BIG for me" (as I hold my arms out wide).

Seriously, none of us will fully understand God's plan for the Jews until it happens. Obviously I believe in the Christian message, but I also believe that God honors those who call on His name in the Judeo-Christian tradition.

The Lord will continue to protect the Jewish people and the State of Israel against all their enemies.