Question to Christians From a Jewish Friend

December 9, 2004 | Michael Katz

[kosta50]

Do you accept Judaism?

For what it is, yes. Personally, no.

If you believe a man can't be God, join them

If God can appear as a burning bush, He certainly can appear as a man.

Nontheless, spoken like the true supercessionist [sic] that you are

So, now you don't only know me but you know the "true" me, which happens to be a "supercessionist," whatever that is.

This was about rejection. Judaism rejected Christianity; Christians did not reject Judaism. The first Christians considered themselves Jews.

So What? And the bloodthirsty Constantine considered himself a Christian

I am sure there are plenty of bloodthirsty individuals who consider themselves Jewish. I guess that invalidates their Jewishness, as you think Constantine's thirst for blood invalidates what he believed in.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

So, now you don't only know me but you know the "true" me, which happens to be a "supercessionist," whatever that is.

Sure I know you well enough from the few posts that its obvious you're supercessionist. But hey most christians wear it as a badge of courage. fear not.

This was about rejection. Judaism rejected Christianity; Christians did not reject Judaism. The first Christians considered themselves Jews

As I mentioned before, plenty of rejection from both sides. You ever heard of the crusades, inquisitions, pograms or Holocaust?

[kosta50]

There is no such trinitarian theology in Judaism

No there isn't. Which doesn't mean it isn't true, or that it is not hinted. Hypostasis simply means something that has existence, such as your words. But they are not just sequences of letters; they contain in them your mind and your spirit at the same time.

I am not familiar with the sefirot, or how they come about, but I think you are taking the word "person" too literally. There is one God; we know of Him through his manifested energeias (workings): Wisdom, Word and Spirit.

[kosta50]

Sure I know you well enough from the few posts that its obvious you're . But hey most christians wear it as a badge of courage. fear not

You wouldn't mind perhaps stating which? For someone who consistently spells Christian with a lower case "c" it is clear where you stand. However, your hatefulness and pettiness still do not explain what is "supercessionist."

ever heard of the crusades, inquisitions, pograms or Holocaust?

Sure, especially the 4th Crusade. Inquisition was a witchunt which had nothing to do with Jewish rejection of Christianity. Pogroms were politically motivated in the wake of the Franco-Russian war. The Holocaust was a product of anything but Christian teachings. I, as a Slav, would have been a subhuman worthy either of forced labor ro extermination along with the Jews in Hitler's Germany. Do not confuse criminal minds and criminal acts with Christian teachings.

[missyme]

You ever heard of the crusades, inquisitions, pograms or Holocaust?
This has nothing to do with Christianity, EVIL prevails under many forms of religion. Christianity is from the Bible the same one you read not a part of ISLAM and the Koran... Christianity teaches forgive your enemies love thy neighbor Evil people hide behind every religion of the world that does not mean that it is part of truth.

But I'm sure you know that....

[AAABEST]

You ever heard of the crusades, inquisitions, pograms or Holocaust?

What this person doesn't realize is that the crusades enabled the civilization of the Western world, without them he probably wouldn't even exist. The inquisitions were largely overblown by propagandists. I have no idea what he's referring to in relating the Holocaust to Christianity, except to say such is the tactic of a leftist.

His screenname fits him perfectly.

[broadsword]

I hope you're not equating Christianity with Islam in terms of legitimacy.

That's his pattern. Anything to harm Christianity and glorify Mohammed's death-cult.

[missyme]

It's so infuriating when people refer to the Holocaust in there hate of Christianity.

Are we to blame for Slavery? or any of the ills done by evil people?

If Christianity failed to exsist today the world would not exsist because ISLAM would definetly blow up Israel and take over the secular left.....

Being a Christian is loving the lord and Israel for there defense of one loving GOD who created this world..

[1 spark]

RE: "The first Christians considered themselves Jews."

The earliest Jewish followers of Jesus, who thought he was the messiah, did not think he was God in the flesh. According to Judaism, God cannot be a man. The OT predictions of messiah never said he would be God in the flesh, or part of a trinity. He would be a man annointed by God. If you look at the earliest gospels, they do not paint Jesus as God in the flesh. It is only the later Gospel of John, which exemplifies the EVOLVING Christology, that equates Jesus to God.(You don't see Jesus equating himself to God in the earlier gospels of Matthew, Mark, or Luke.) Unitarians, JW's (i think), and progressive Christians digress from the fundamentalsit interpretations of John. Constantinian Christianity claims to have its' base in Judaism, but the doctrines of the Constantinian church are anathema to what Judaism teaches. Read up on the Nicene Council. Note there was ongoing disagreement to the nature of Jesus. Before the argument of the trinity (3 in one), there was disagreement over the idea of 2 God's in one (father and son). How could anyone discount the political climate of the time? Human beings came up with the Nicene creed. "Spin" existed just as much at that time, as it does now. Jesus was a man, period. The Jews who knew that, remained Jews. The early church mightily enforced (understatement here!) their composite of God on the ignorant masses.

[1 spark]

RE: "This has nothing to do with Christianity."

If you seriously think that Christianity had nothing to do with the crusades, the inquisitions, or the Holocaust...you REALLY need to educate yourself.

[1 spark]

RE:"That's his pattern. Anything to harm Christianity and glorify Mohammed's death-cult."

You really need to take a break from FR, if that's what you think. Apparently, you don't know Malakhi at all.

[missyme]

The Holocaust had ro do anything with Jesus's teachings?

Jesus never ever said his death as a Jew was to persecute the Jews never....

JIhad definetly is part of ISLAM The Holocaust and Christianity have nothing to do with another

[missyme]

Hitler and the Nazi Regime are not like Osama and Al Queda which has to do with the Koran.

However I do beleive people in the past were very ignorant when they said they were Christians and had slaves or did nothing to stop the Holocaust still they had nothing to do with the Apostles message of Christianity they had spread to the Gentile world..

Hitler did not even believe Jesus was a Jew if he did he would of put Jesus on a train to Auschwitz....

[stands2reason]

wonder boy

Is it hard for you to exhibit even a modicum of respect?

[Osage Orange]

To explain how and why I know would take me a few hours .

Yeah...right.

[Safrguns]

1) What do the 2/3's of Jews die from (war, just happens????) 2) What happens to the remaning 1/3 of Jews after they survive? I'm somewhat familiar with escatology (study of end times), but I'm not an expert... However I do know enough to answer some of your major concerns. The tribulation period is not a judgement against the Jews... it is judgement against the world. I'm not familiar with any statistics on Jewish deaths i.e. 2/3... 1/3 remaining... I don't ever recall hearing that. Those statistics and others I believe are in reference to global death tolls. The reference material you seek is in Revalations. (opening of the seals and the 7 bowl judgements) Pestilence, earthquakes, fire, nuclear war, Several Different ways MANY people will die The Jews are God's chosen people... always have been and always will be. God's plan for evangelizing the nations is through the Jewish people... particularly during the end times (7 year tribulation) It is during the tribulation when all nations will come against Israel under the leadership of the antichrist (who will not be revealed until the rapture occurs.) Messianic Jews (Those who have accepted Jesus as the Messiah) will not be on earth during the tribulation... they depart with all other christians at rapture to meet Jesus for the marriage feast of the Lamb (during the same time as tribulation) Those Jews who are left will suddenly realize (not necessarily all of them) that they had rejected the true Messiah over 2000 years ago... The Jewish people will then become the primary evangelists for Christ on earth... (Christ's church throughout the world is gone) In particular, a special group of evangelical Jews will emerge as Christ's ambassadors in a totally Godless world... They are referred to in Revelations as the 144,000. Judgement comes in a few different flavors... 1. It is appointed to men once to die, and then comes the judgement... This scripture goes for Jews and non Jews alike. This judgement occurs shortly after death, and is simple... are you covered by the blood of Christ or not? If you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior (Messiah), then you are covered by His blood, and escape judgement from all sin. If you have not, your judgement is eternal separation from God. 2. Great White throne judgement This does not occur until after the 1000 millenial reign of Christ on earth following the tribulation. It is during this judgement when ALL who have rejected Christ will be judged according to their works. (Christians don't go to this one) 3. Judgement Seat Of Christ This is the judgement which all Christians will face... where they must give an account for all they have done... also where rewards are given for their actions (good works) done through the Holy Spirit. This judgement occurs during the marriage feast of the Lamb (in heaven,same period as tribulation) While it is not clear what 'give an account' entails, we do know that it does not involve punishment for sin... because Jesus already paid that sin debt for us. The bottom line is this... Jew or not... Once you die, Thats it... your eternal fate is settled. As exclusionary and cold as it sounds, Jesus Christ is the only way. But everyone has been given the same chance. Will it be possible for people to be saved during the tribulation? Yes... but It will be a much harder road to travel... and You DONT want to be here.

[Harrymehome]

You wrote:
What I have made out so far is that during rapture I beleive 2/3's of Jews are killed, but one third survive.

First, I wish to clarify that there are two main trends of beliefs in regards to the rapture. They are the pre-tribulation rapture believers and the post-tribulation rapture believers. And within these two main groups there little twists and variations here and there. The pre-tribulation belief can be easily proven, using at least 100 verses or maybe even more, from the Holy Word of God, that it is false. Unfortunately, because this is a forum, I can't go into a long study of the Sacred Word of God. However, I will provide couple of verses that very easily disproves the pre-tribulation rapture.

Thessalonians 4:15-17 "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

This verse clearly says that at Christ's coming, the dead will rise first. There is no where in Scripture that it says the living will rise or be caught up before the dead. Now, with that thought in mind, we read in

Job 14:12-14 "So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come."

Job clearly states that he will not be raised from the dead (sleep, grave) and become immortal (my change) until after, not before, the wrath (tribulations). We can only conclude that Job will rise before any living person after the tribulations at Christ's coming. There are a plethora of other verses which all agree with this. If you want more, E-mail me at maxblue722@hotmail.com

You wrote:
I am looking to explore what the Bible really teaches about the Jewish fate from the Christian perspective. It is hard to find what the majority opinion is because the internet is, well, the internet.

The Jews have many different doctrines and beliefs just like the so called Christians. In the Christians you have the Catholics, the evangelicals, the Baptists, Latter Day Saints, etc., and each one claiming to be the true Christian church. That's impossible or else there wouldn't be so many diverse doctrines. Obviously, 99.9% of these doctrines are man-made and are not Biblical. They are the works of the Devil. The same holds true for the Jews. There are the Sephardic Jews, the Ashkenazi Jews, the Messianic Jews, etc. and within each of these there are other branches. Again each with his own twist. You question is a very broad topic. If you could pick a specific point, it would be easier to discuss it. One thing you mention is the majority opinion. My advise to you is don't be a crowd follower. The crowd is always wrong. Be a Bible follower. Forget the crowd. Remember, in your next question, 2/3's (the crowd) are destroyed. Remember Noah and his family. Only 8 people were saved. The crowd perished. Remember Sodom and Gemorrah. Only Lot and his wife (died for disobedience) and his 2 daughters were saved. The crowd perished. God is very specific in his Most Holy Word about who his people are and how they can be distinguished from the crowd. Unfortunately, there are many (the crowd) that will perish once again. Not because he desires it to be that way but because they are disobedient and wicked.

MAL 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.


You ask:
1) What do the 2/3's of Jews die from (war, just happens????)
They will die from all the various pestilences, sores, diseases, famines, weather disasters, wars, etc. Revelation 16 covers this subject and so does Matthew 24. We are currently in verse 8 "the beginning of sorrows". Remember the Israelites in Egypt. The various plagues fell on the Egyptians, but not a single Israelite died. We are already seeing the world's climatic changes taking place and it's effects worldwide. We are already seeing new diseases that were not known 10 years ago, such as Mad Cow, and Sars just to mention a couple. We are already seeing the increase in seismiological activity worldwide. We are already seeing the unrest of Nations and of course the war in the Middle East. All the signs are here. Even the signs in the hosts of the heavens.

You ask:
2) What happens to the remaning 1/3 of Jews after they survive?

The 1/3 that you refer to is taken, I presume, from Zechariah 13:8. This verse is not referring specifically to only the Jews. The redeemed Jews will make up a part of that third. They are the ones mentioned in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and many more as the house of Judah. Also known as the fig tree. Also referred to as the pleasant plant.
The other part of the redeemed 1/3 will be made up of the house of Ephraim. Also called the house of Israel (depends on the context). Also called the house of Joseph. Also called the vine or the vineyard. These 2 houses made up the 12 original tribes. We have evidence that the 12 tribes had problems and had split up as for back as Judges 10:9; 2 Samuel 2:10. A major rift took place between the two houses in 1Kings chapters 10 - 13. Again, this is a long and deep subject. Contact me and I will give all the Biblical verses laid out for easy reading,

You ask:
3) Do any of this remaining 1/3 of Jews make it past the final judgement of God (some interpertations say no, others say the remaining Jews are allowed to pass once accepting God and I think Christ)

Yes, some of the house of Judah will be part of the redeemed remnant. But not all. Some who call themselves Jews are not really Jews (Rev 2:9 and 3:9). They are not descendents of Judah and don't have a single gene of Israelite blood. They are only Jews by religion. However, the fact that they are not biological Jews does not prevent their salvation. What prevents their salvation as well as all other people in the world is disobedience to what God's law and what his requirements are. Not man-made laws and doctrines. If you don't know what these are, contact me and I will specifically give all the Biblical info. The very end of the Holy Word says:
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

4) You wrote:I hope us Jews and Christians both make it together to the promised land (and only the Muslims are sent to hell!)

Some of us will, and some of us won't.

Isaiah 11:11 ".. the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, .. "

Note that only those that are left of his people will he recover or save (redeem). That is the 1/3 mentioned earlier. Not all will be saved. The other 2/3 ' s will perish in one way or another.

Isa 10:22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Zech. 8:12 For the seed shall be prosperous; the vine shall give her fruit, and the ground shall give her increase, and the heavens shall give their dew; and I will cause the remnant of this people to possess all these things.

Notice it doesn't say "all this people". It says the "remnant (means a small part) of this people"

May God Bless You in your search for the TRUTH.

[kosta50]

According to Judaism, God cannot be a man

But He can be a burning bush? Where does it say in Hebrew Scriptures wthat God can not do or be?

The OT predictions of messiah never said he would be God in the flesh, or part of a trinity. He would be a man annointed by God

That was the interpretation. Jesus changed that. Now, I am not blaming the Jews for being skeptical -- imagine if someone today hinted that he is God-incarnate! We would send him to a looney-hospital! This is not something that everyone will just readily accept. Now that Christianity is established, it is easy to be a Chirstian (in name at least), just as it is easy to be a Jew and fall on the established tradition as your proof and support. This had to take some time -- and it took relatiovely short time considering.

Happy Hanukkah! It is only the later Gospel of John, which exemplifies the EVOLVING Christology, that equates Jesus to God.(You don't see Jesus equating himself to God in the earlier gospels of Matthew, Mark, or Luke.)

Of course it was evolving. Judaisam evolved too. Look at the two versions of Genesis. But there are plenty of hints in the Gospels as to the divinity of Jesus, and his equiessence (homooussia) with the Father.

+John certainly writes more of Jesus in divine terms(see Jn 1:1, 1:14, 8:58, 10:30-31, 38-39, 20:28, Rev 1:17, 22:13), but so does +Paul (Col 2:8-9, Tit 2:13, Phi 2:6, Heb 1:8).

Likewise, there are hints that He is also a man (Jn 8:40, 12:28, Act 17:31, 1 Cor 11:3, Col 3:1, Tim 2:5). Since biblical "contradictions" are assumed to be our lack of understanding rather than error, the Church proclaimed the revelation that Jesus has two natures and two wills, one divine and the other human (and mortal). When Nestorius started to teach otherwise, he was excommunicated and the Church Ecumenical Councils defined precisely the belief based on the Gospels and the OT. There was no "spin."

This whole thread started with a call for Jews and Christians to form a united front against a common enemy. There are two billion Christian on this earth and a trickle of Jews. You are more than welcome to join a common cause for the good of all, but let's not pretend that there is some magical "bond" between the Jews and Christians. There are some evangelicals in the US who think they are Jews and can't tell the difference between the Old and the New Testament (Heb 8:7-13 pretty much determines the difference). The rest of Christianity does not see it that way.

If you wish to believe Jesus was "just a man" that is your prerogative as much as it is someone's who says "There is no God." It doesn't change anything; least of all God.

The only reason I got on the thread is because the Jewish poster called Christians to pray that Muslims go to hell and I said that's not what we teach.

[kosta50]

Sorry, Happy Hannukah somehow ended up near the top rather than at the end --- oh, well.

[bperiwinkle7]

To Mike,
it looks like i'm getting into this late, but i take questions like yours very seriously. the Salvation of G-d belongs to Israel. Rabbi Saul said that he was not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ which is the power of G-d unto salvation for them that believe, to the JEW FIRST and then to the gentile.
look here http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=12&version=47
i have put a link to chapter 12 of the book of Zechariah. among other things,there will come a time when the remnant of Israel will look upon Jesus whom they had pierced and will receive Him........that is what will happen. will you be one? hope so. more questions. looking for websites of interest like http://www.hopeofisrael.net/ go here fast. love it. so much more to say.