Posted on 11/29/2004 10:05:10 AM PST by heyheyhey
Edited on 11/29/2004 8:30:17 PM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]
No. According to Sinkspur, Traditional Catholics MUST be Calvinists because we've actually bothered to read Scripture and know that Christ Himself sais for many. You think you're smarter than Christ? Be my guest Sink, take that arminian road to hell, I'm sure it's full of good intentions. It's your soul.
He witholds nothing. He died for the elect; every person has free will and is capable of joining the elect. Many won't. God told us where they go when they die. Perfect justice.
The depravity of the argument is stunning!
Considering that you call yourself a deacon, your ignorance of this is what is stunning.
1. From an account of Mother Teresa of Calcutta visiting San Quentin's death row in 1987: Mother Teresa turned and pointed her hand at the sergeant on the shelf. "What you do to these men," she told him, "you do to God." The sergeant almost faded away in surprise and wonder.
2. Ask yourself why is the Church's pro-life position nonnegotiable? Could it be that we believe in the words of Christ: "what you did to the least of my brethren, you did it to me?"
In the light of the above ask yourself this next question, when Our Lord had said "my blood shed for multitudes" the actual meaning of His words is that He shed His blood "for everyone" or "only for some," did He come to save the righteous or the sinners, did He come to heal the healthy ones or the ill, did He die for you and me or only for the carefully selected?
The word "elect" appears several times in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Please note how the word is being used there. In the Catechism "elect" never has the Calvinist meaning of person living in this world and unconditionally "predestined" for Heaven. Each time it connotes those who have already left this valley of tears, and did so in the state of grace.
I realized that more heat than light was being shed, please accept my apologies.
Regarding predestination and the elect; be assured that BOTH are indeed tenets of Roman Catholicism. One does not need to be a Calvinist to believe in pre-destination; saints, theologians and Popes have recognized it for centuries. To be sure, Roman Catholic exegesis on either point differs significantly from Calvin's understanding of it.
Did Christ die for the unrepentant? An interesting theological question. Did he die for those who refuse to be saved? Did he die for apostates? If you truly understand the Roman Catholic definition of the elect, you should have no beef with me.
Pax Christi.
Yep, you got it. That is exactly what "died for all" means. He died for the good, the bad and the ugly, as I have said; your grandma included. All are offered Salvation through Christ, and all are free to reject it.
St. Paul teaches, Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall [in 1 Cor. 10:12]. The warning is for you and me and for all the carefully selected "elect" who think Christ died for them exclusively, even for the ones, who understand Latin. ;-)
Read the Catechism:
CCC 389. Jesus is the Savior of all men. [The word "men" actually means "humans" and includes women, children and even transvestites]Look, maybe you are right; God shouldn't be so generous? But He said, His ways were not our ways and His thoughts were not our thoughts.CCC 1260. [...] Christ died for all, and [...] all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine [...] [See the note on "men" above]
CCC 1741. By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. [See the note on "men" above]
CCC 1825. Christ died out of love for us, while we were still "enemies."
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