Posted on 11/14/2004 8:45:23 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
Ping.
Thought provoking material and thread.
May God bless you in your business travels. I look forward to hearing from you when you return.
I can imagine it in the format of "Our Daily Bread" or "The Upper Room."
Verse, devotional insight, prayer, guidance for further reflection/study.
Trying to keep simple something so complicated would be such a challenge, but it would be so valuable to so many Christians.
365 devotions...for an entire year.
The format sounds great to me. In fact, with 365 days of it - reading one day after another, one bite at a time - it may not be so complicated after all!
I'm glad that the thought has been with you long before I noticed it.
It would be probably be forward of me to send different ideas when they strike me in your writings -- like, "Wow, that would fit exactly into a devotional!" -- but I'm going to be forward....by back-channel freepmail, of course. No sense embarrassing myself. :>)
Thank you for the great idea!!!
And please, oh, please send us all of your ideas. I hope you do post most of them on thread because I'm not sure which way or who the Lord will move to carry it forward.
Thanks for the ping and the interesting read. :-)
Thanks! Deal. :-)
Aristotle was 27 years Plato's student and colleague, and his philosophical work in many respects -- e.g., ethics, politics, anthropology -- agrees with Plato's thought. But there is a very significant difference between them: Plato's model was geometrical in approach -- and thus "abstract," in the sense that any "ideal" geometrical figure, a circle say, is a non-existent reality (non-existent in the sense that it is not a datum of ordinary sense experience in 4D space time), and yet it is the paradigm for every existing circle that can be constructed.
This is what is meant when one speaks of the Platonic Ideas: they are in effect eternal cosmic blueprints for the multiplicity of phenomena arising in the physical domain. And as Plato said in the Timaeus, "God geometrizes always," suggesting that the cosmos is the image or eikon of a divine "Beyond," whose image or likeness the cosmos is.
It is said that the motto, "Let no one ignorant of geometry enter here" was emblazoned over the main portal of Plato's famous Academy in Athens. But the main point of the Idea (as geometrical object) is that it is the paradigm of true, eternal being, while existential phenomena modeled on it are in a condition, not of being, but of becoming -- and then passing away.
Aristotle was more interested than Plato in examining actual existing objects than in discovering the universal laws of their genesis and passing away. He was more interested in the practical, nuts-and-bolts "How???" of things, where Plato arguably was interested in the "WHY???"
For this reason, Plato is often assumed to be the idealist, and Aristotle the realist. IMHO however, the human mind naturally works in both domains -- i.e., the abstract and the concrete -- and so we need both approaches.
Thanks so much, Patrick, for the link to The School of Athens.
I'm usually better at linking than at thinking.
Thank you so much, Alamo-Girl! I've been thinking about this subject of being vs. becoming a lot lately. It seems very clear to me that Plato's insights were further elaborated in Christian thought, in a radical, striking way. I thought it might be interesting to put up a post on this subject, but since it's more cosmological than strictly scientific, I wondered if this is the thread to post it to. What do you think?
In the first place, science is a form of philosophy wherein it was given birth and in the second place, this thread seeks to explore anything and everything that leaves us standing in awe at the glory of God.
Thank you oh so very much for all of your insights, betty boop!
I finally found time to read this thread all the way through. A good read. I thought that I would start to respond to your comment from another thread, here.
Where to start? Your knowledge of scripture is very good, plus you seem disposed to the idea that the numbers have meaning, so I will not try to argue this for now, even though I know that it needs to be supported. I’ll just ramble on with some examples
One, two and three are prime numbers, and in them we see the father, son, and spirit. Four is the first number capable of division and speaks of the creature. In it we see trial, testing and where man is concerned, failure. Four can divide into 3+1(good sense as in the Gospels) or 2+2 (evil sense as in man’s heart). In five, we see God in Government, 4+1(Man in weakness opposed by God’s strength as In the hand). Hold on to these thoughts.
Start out with our hands and feet. Here we have four groups of five, each group dividing onto 4+1. The four being man and the 1 speaks of God. It is the thumb that gives the hand its strength. In the works of our hands, God has taken the subservient position, while in our walk he is prominent.
Like in the pentateucal structure of the Bible, these four groups may be lacking a fifth group
Lev 14:14 And the priest shall take some of the blood of the trespass offering, and the priest shall put it upon the tip of the right ear of him that is to be cleansed, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot:
Perhaps here, the ear, one of the five senses, is part of the group that would be the fifth.
Twelve is another common number in scripture. You see it used in God’s system of government. It is also a number associated with life. Look at the Periodic Table. The element most closely related to twelve is carbon. It is also associated with living things, so that it has its own subject in school, Organic Chemistry. The proprieties of carbon are not an accident. There is design in everything God does. (The number one excludes difference. but the number two affirms it) In its pure state, carbon exists in nature two ways, and they are literally as different as night and day.
The number four talks of trial. We have forty years in the wilderness, forty days in the wilderness, indeed after forty centuries, the trial of man ended, and God’s judgment was poured out without mixture at the cross. If the sun represents Christ, (careful here) then his coming brings the new day. The day dawns slowly to give our eyes time to adjust to the light, and if we count the Sun as a number “one,” then the Earth, the place of the trial is the fourth planet in our solar system.(as a “three”, it is also significant)
There is no subject of doctrine that is not touched by this in some way. Let me try to use it here. You talk about four or five dimensions. The mathematics is easy in this regard. Just integrate your equations as needed, increment or decrement the exponents, add some definitions, you describe something that may not exist. I don’t see the numbers in scripture going this direction at all. There are three dimensions, to match the triune God. It is the work of the spirit to reveal, and it is the third dimension that gives us substance, the fourth number introduces weakness.
Perhaps I will understand your argument someday. I keep trying, but I remain ever the skeptic, not just your position, but also my own as well.
Just a few examples here, not many details, but I hope you enjoy.
I have found this stuff to be good for devotionals.
Seven
I have been meditating quite a bit on your graphic – the pentateuch structure of the Scripture – especially, the 5 x 5 matrix.
Dimensionality however is not so clear. Our vision and minds have been limited to observe three spatial dimensions (x,y,z) and one time dimension (t). The fact of such a limitation itself is another one of those “standing in awe” moments for me. It is as if we are made to be blind by a selection of coordinates.
Superstring theory comes in several varieties – some suggesting 26 dimensions, some suggesting 10 dimensions. These are essentially spatial dimensions in the Kaluza-Klein mode of tiny, vibrating, compactified strings.
There are also theories of higher dimensionality. These theories assert that matter of all kinds manifest from higher dimensional vacuums – and that brane (membrane, planes) collisions in higher dimensions can effect a big bang in four dimensions.
There are also theories of extra time dimensions. From an extra time dimension, the time dimension of our four-dimensional block is a plane and not a line. Thus, cause/effect is not set in stone. Events can be changed past, present and future. It would also explain non-locality (where measuring a split photon on earth determines the state of the other in some other galaxy), superluminal events (exceeding the speed of light), Schrodinger’s cat (when the cat is both alive and dead) and so on.
Going back to the limitation of our vision and mind – if we were able to see the physical realm in a different choice of coordinates, we’d be able to remove the inside of a box without opening it, look inside of a body directly, lift a body without external force, etc. The Curse of Dimensionality (pdf)
But with the state-of-the-art in geometric physics as it is today, I’m not prepared to suggest exactly how many dimensions exist, how many of them are temporal or how they may split between compactified or higher dimensionality. Therefore, I would not speculate how dimensionality might figure into the numerical structure of Scripture.
As a final note, you might find it curious that the Hebrew alphabet is essentially numeric and that Newton believed the Scriptures contained a code which unlocks secrets of the universe.
Most people are aware of the equidistant letter sequencing proposed by Rips et al – which is commonly called, The Bible Code. Naturally the secular scientists and mathematicians see nothing there and appeal to the numerical structure of the Hebrew alphabet as an explanation. And sadly, the ELS has been woefully commercialized both for selling books and to make predictions.
The Jewish mathematicians point out that using the ELS to make predictions is in direct disobedience to the Scriptures and that their work has been limited to a 2 dimensional matrix. But the number of hits they found in their research is nevertheless impressive – or else it would never have passed peer review to be published in the first place.
All of that to make this one point and bring the subject back to the fields.
The author of the commercialized book inquired the ELS both with the term “Einstein” and the “theory of relativity” and got the hit “add a fifth part”. Those who take the ELS seriously seem to leap to the conclusion this means a fifth dimension. But relativity (both special and general) is a theory of gravity, one of the four fundamental fields. That gravity translates to a warping of space/time is an interesting subject of duality – but if there is a fifth part to be added, IMHO, it would be speaking to the proposed fifth fundamental field.
Thanks for taking the time to try to explain these things to me. I’m working on it. Perhaps some more observations on the Pentateuch structure would be helpful.
The “ones” are the most general in meaning and usually the largest. I will not try to give them a limited meaning. The “twos” we start to see meanings like redemption. With “three” we go into the sanctuary (Leviticus), and “four,” we go back out into the world (Numbers). Now we come to the division of 4+1. We have as in 1 Cor. 15:46, natural then spiritual. Using the old and new testaments, this is pretty straightforward, but look at Deuteronomy. It comes from a word that means a “second law” Here we have a recap of the first four books from a spiritual perspective, just as the new testament, is looking at the same picture as the old testament, but from a spiritual perspective.
As you gain confidence in the meaning of the numbers, you begin to see how the scripture is built around them, and why things are the way they are. Example. Paul(Three) takes us into the sanctuary in his letters, but in the general epistles(Four), Peter, James, John, and Jude, we are back in the world. We are told, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.”(Matt 5:16) To let our light shine before God, would be about as useful as a log key on a calculator. Even a flame will cast a shadow in the sunlight. To stress works when we stand before God would be out of place, but it is perfectly fitted before men, thus we see grace in Paul’s letters, and the general epistles, works is more prominent
I will point out here that the book of Psalms also forms a Pentateuch; it has been called the “Pentateuch of David.” As usual the structure is the same 4+1 that we see elsewhere.
These same observations are not limited to the books themselves, but show up in the outline of the Bible, the whole book, cover to cover. Is this rightly dividing the word of truth? Awesome?
Seven
Definitely awesome, Seven_0! Thank you so much for the magnificent insights. I'm scribbling away tonight on my own little piece, taking a different tack, but maybe winding up pretty much at the same destination. I hope you will share your impressions of it when I finally get it posted.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.