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VANITY: Pig-headed Vatican Pacifists Doomed Christianity in Spain
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1235221/posts ^ | 10/5/04 | Vanity

Posted on 10/05/2004 3:12:10 PM PDT by dangus

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To: dangus
"And the reason is that the Vatican State Department declared war on the allied coalition against Iraq."

Failed your logic course, did you?

21 posted on 10/06/2004 5:27:20 AM PDT by verity (The Liberal Media is America's Enemy)
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To: Land of the Irish
I was responding to the poster of this vanity and to sinkspur.

I was not addressing the linked article.

22 posted on 10/06/2004 5:35:54 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: sinkspur
The Pope was wrong on Iraq. He opposed the war because of the Chaldean Christians. Hussein murdered nearly a million Iraqis.

Do you think that meetingtea party he had with Tariq Azziz before the war had anything to do to influence his decision to speak out?

23 posted on 10/06/2004 5:59:38 AM PDT by kstewskis (BUSH-GIBSON 2004)
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To: marshmallow
I was responding to the poster of this vanity and to sinkspur.

And I was responding to your post #14.

24 posted on 10/06/2004 6:02:57 AM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: sinkspur
I'm sorry you think that way.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church has this to say about a just war:

2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

- there must be serious prospects of success;

- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine.

The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

I don't believe that any of these points were satisfied with respect to Iraq, but especially point #1 "..........lasting, grave and certain."

Not "possible", "probable" or "highly likely". Certain.

Iraq is on the way to becoming an Islamic state. "Democracy" will be a very poor bulwark against this spiritual onslaught and time will show the folly of our actions, if it hasn't already.

Sorry, I'm one of those Catholic subversives whose first reaction to a problem is find what the Catechism says about it, rather than the US Constitution or the GOP manifesto.

25 posted on 10/06/2004 6:10:23 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow
certain.

The French intelligence agency, as well as Germany, Russia, Israel, and the United States, were all CERTAIN that Hussein had WMDs.

They were also certain that he had violated 14 UN strictures.

Taking him out was simply an extension of Gulf War I, another war that the Vatican opposed.

The Vatican has no answer to the war on terror, except to take the issue to the UN. The Catholic Catechism is also out of date in dealing with murderous Islamists. Waiting for Kofi Anan to approve of our actions is a prescription for death.

As to what will happen in Iraq, neither you nor I have any idea about the future, except that we will have bases there for a very long time. And that is a good thing.

26 posted on 10/06/2004 6:41:43 AM PDT by sinkspur ("I exist in the fevered swamps of traditional arcana. "--Cardinal Fanfani)
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To: neocon; marshmallow

Thanks to both of you for telling the truth.


27 posted on 10/06/2004 7:07:32 AM PDT by Romulus (Why change Horsemen in the middle of the Apocalypse?)
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To: verity

>>>"And the reason is that the Vatican State Department declared war on the allied coalition against Iraq."<<<<

>> Failed your logic course, did you?<<

I guess you did. I never implied a syllogism.


28 posted on 10/06/2004 7:07:33 AM PDT by dangus
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To: narses

I wouldn't blame JPII personally, but the Vatican State Department did politically align itself with the leftist, nihilist scum of Europe in attempt to thwart the war.


29 posted on 10/06/2004 7:10:08 AM PDT by dangus
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To: marshmallow

Iraq invaded Kuwait. That plainly created a just-war situation. A ceasefire was negotiated on the basis that Irq would dismantle its warmaking ability. When it became clear that Iraq had violated the terms of the peace agreement, the United States, who had fought virtually alone to win PG1 contrary to modern legend, moved in to conclude the war which Hussein had been raging against his own people since 1991.

The socialist myth is that the sanctions were starving Iraqi people. The reality is that Hussein was, making billions for himself while he SHUT THE WATER OFF so that the his own people could not plant their crops.

The damage done to the Kurds, the Marsh Arabs, and the Shiites was lasting, and grave.


30 posted on 10/06/2004 7:15:36 AM PDT by dangus
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To: sinkspur; marshmallow
The Catholic Catechism is also out of date in dealing with murderous Islamists.

I've gotta butt in on that statement.

I think both the Pope and the President played their roles as anticipated by the Catechism. The Pope kept urging us to try one more time to settle things without going to war and the President, who actually has the responsibility (according to the Catechism), made the judgement that we had done everything that was reasonable, we had made the extra efforts and there was no possibility that Hussein would agree to abide by the truce terms without us going to war.

2308

However, "as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed."

2309

The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

31 posted on 10/06/2004 7:51:01 AM PDT by siunevada
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To: HuntsvilleTxVeteran
After a couple of centuries of Moslem rule, Spain will get it's guts back.

Ouch.

32 posted on 10/06/2004 7:53:50 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: dangus

While the Vatican's position may have been a contributing factor, it is not the exclusive factor as your statement implies. That is why I cannot accept your conclusion.


33 posted on 10/06/2004 8:21:38 AM PDT by verity (The Liberal Media is America's Enemy)
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To: dangus; MikeinIraq
I wouldn't blame the Catholic Church per se. But until those in the Church/church drop the human rights/humanitarian nonsense and focus on it's mission, it will find appealing and supporting left-wing liberals is bad for business.
34 posted on 10/06/2004 8:38:36 AM PDT by HarleyD (Did I choose Jesus? - or - Did Jesus choose me? (hint-John 15:16))
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To: HarleyD

Also please note that the Vatican State Department is NOT the Catholic Church!


35 posted on 10/06/2004 8:50:44 AM PDT by dangus
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To: Land of the Irish
And I was unsure of your point.

What is it?

That the Church is "unsure how to face this"? Dithering Vatican ninnies, in other words?

The Church will "face this" in the same way that it has faced every other crisis in its history. With the Gospel of Jesus.

And it will triumph.

36 posted on 10/06/2004 9:22:51 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow
The Catechism is addressing normal warlike aggression of nation-states.

But, what about the threat of terrorism, and what of nations that support or shelter terrorists?

By the standard of the Catechism, it would seem that we must sit idly and allow the murder of innocents through terrorism.

I think this is something the Church needs to address more explicitly.

37 posted on 10/06/2004 9:55:38 AM PDT by B Knotts ("John Kerry, who says he doesn't like outsourcing, wants to outsource our national security.")
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To: sinkspur

"Sedevacantists have a reputation for anti-semitism. You further that reputation."


Hmmm .... you seem to use the anti-semitism card as readily as others use the race card. That is bad and lazy reasoning; the kind of thing Mel Gibson has to deal with in that cesspool called Hollywood.

But what I have noticed is your tendency to malign Wojtyla (e.g. over Iraq) and to praise him to the heavens (e.g. when on one of his Assisi-type trips). Remember, no-one outside (or inside for that matter) America is duty bound to support its grand designs .... Coca-Cola and McDonalds is not a fair exchange!


38 posted on 10/07/2004 4:40:04 AM PDT by Wessex
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To: Wessex
Remember, no-one outside (or inside for that matter) America is duty bound to support its grand designs

No they're not. But they're also not going to stop the United States from protecting its interests and defending itself from threat.

That ought to be clear as a bell by now.

39 posted on 10/07/2004 6:39:49 AM PDT by sinkspur ("I exist in the fevered swamps of traditional arcana. "--Cardinal Fanfani)
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