Wayward-looking-to-return-to-the-fold-Cathoilc Stumbles upon Jack Chick...now what?

9/28/04 | NJ Neocon

[siunevada]

In short, if you deny that the Believer preserves and increases his Justification before God by racking up enough Good Works, or if you affirm that Good Works are the Fruit and Manifestation of True Faith

I'm still not seeing it the way you see it. I don't see that scorecard where one "racks up" Good Works anywhere in the Council's own words. They seem to state the opposite quite clearly. I also see the word merely being dropped from your citations of the Council's statement.

Then your Doctrine is Eastern Orthodox, not Romanist; and I'll expect to see your Resignation from Rome

Well, you do have levity going for you. Good one.

[ArrogantBustard]

And this better be good.

Dude, with all due respect ...

The chest thumping is really kind of silly. It makes you look childish. At best.

I enjoy reading these threads, but If I want to see chest thumping and feather fluffing I'll watch Animal Planet. The gorillas and birds are better at it than you.

Have a lovely day.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

First things first, the Church teaches this: CCC 1992 ~~ Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life: But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus. ~~ This is what the Church teaches. It is sufficient to show that your assertation is wrong.

Lovely.

Alright, then...

• Do you Deny, or do you Affirm, that "the justice received is preserved and also increased before God through Good Works"?

Further:

• Are "the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained"? Or...
• Are the Good Works "a cause of the increase thereof (Justification)?"

Here's the scoop, kemosabe -- you didn't show any evidence whatsoever that I have "misread and misappropriate Trent". This is to be expected, since all I have been doing is explicitly quoting Trent.

You have claimed that "This is what the Church teaches. It is sufficient to show that your assertation is wrong" -- More Assertion, not Argument.

What you HAVEN'T demonstrated is ANY SPECIFIC INSTANCE whatsoever where, in explicitly quoting Trent, I have "misread and misappropriated Trent" in any way. You have claimed as much, but you haven't pointed to any instance where I have done so. What are you, a wind-up toy which responds "You Mislead! You Mislead!" every time somebody simply quotes Romanist documents for what they are? IF you intend to demonstrate your claim that I have "misread and misappropriated Trent" in any way, then IDENTIFY precisely where I have done so.

As is, you haven't... Claiming that I have "misread and misappropriated Trent", you've yet failed to point up a single instance where I have done so -- and thus, all your "rap duelling" just looks distracting, and silly. Perhaps a cover for the fact that, in addition to not Proving your Case, you haven't even presented your Case?

Now, if I may say so, THAT is Funny.

best, OP

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I'm still not seeing it the way you see it. I don't see that scorecard where one "racks up" Good Works anywhere in the Council's own words. They seem to state the opposite quite clearly.

Oh? Let's see if you can answer the following challenge, then:

"Each act of Good Work increases the Believer's Justification before God."

True, or False?

Best, OP

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

anymore than going to the "Nation Dominating Liberty University" makes you right. Do they put that above the door?

Considering the drubbing that American Catholic University takes each year, every year, from Falwell's Fundamentalists (on whatever National Debate topic; results are pretty much the same, every year), we might as well write it above American Catholic's door.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

anymore than going to the "Nation Dominating Liberty University" makes you right. Do they put that above the door?

Considering the drubbing that American Catholic University takes each year, every year, from Falwell's Fundamentalists (on whatever National Debate topic; results are pretty much the same, every year), we might as well write it above American Catholic's door.

[siunevada]

Got a location for that quote?

I do find this:

CHAPTER X. On the increase of Justification received.

Having, therefore, been thus justified, and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day; that is, by mortifying the members of their own flesh, and by presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified, as it is written; He that is just, let him be justified still; and again, Be not afraid to be justified even to death; and also, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. And this increase of justification holy Church begs, when she prays, "Give unto us, O Lord, increase of faith, hope, and charity."

I still think you are talking apples and oranges with the Council. I'm not sure you both mean the same thing when you use the words 'justice', 'justification' or 'increase'.

[Dominick]

These are the usual suspect used by anti-Catholics the world over. What the Catholic Church believes is what is important here.

Do you Deny, or do you Affirm, that "the justice received is preserved and also increased before God through Good Works"?

The Church teaches in a response to Lutherans:
The Catholic Church maintains, moreover, that the good works of the justified are always the fruit of grace. But at the same time, and without in any way diminishing the totally divine initiative (5), they are also the fruit of man, justified and interiorly transformed. We can therefore say that eternal life is, at one and the same time, grace and the reward given by God for good works and merits

Which is saying you have asked for a false dichotomy. Trying to say it can be one or the other is wrong, because the fruit of Salvation is Good works which manifest themselves from inspiration by the Holy Spirit, which in turn states that good works are rewarded in Heaven. Why else would Christ say store up a Treasure in Heaven?

Here's the scoop, kemosabe -- you didn't show any evidence whatsoever that I have "misread and misappropriate Trent". This is to be expected, since all I have been doing is explicitly quoting Trent.

I said you have the Catholic position wrong, and all you quoted was an anti-Catholic Pamphlet. I quick google of the phrase you used brings up a slew of them. Lets actually quote Trent:

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.
CANON XXVI.-If any one saith, that the just ought not, for their good works done in God, to expect and hope for an eternal recompense from God, through His mercy and the merit of Jesus Christ, if so be that they persevere to the end in well doing and in keeping the divine commandments; let him be anathema.
CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

First: No man is justified by his own works. Twenty Sixth: God will compensate those who do good works in Heaven. Thirty Second: Even though the Grace to do good work is from God, the faithful worker still merits a reward from God, and the works from that Grace are credited to him.

This makes sense, a lousy Catholic like me and I am not going to merit the same particular reward as St. Francis or St. Theresa of Calcutta. I hope just to be asked into the door by the Grace of Jesus Christ.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Got a location for that quote?

Yes. Me. I'm asking you a question:

"Each act of Good Work increases the Believer's Justification before God."

True, or False?

Best, OP

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Do you Deny, or do you Affirm, that "the justice received is preserved and also increased before God through Good Works"? ~~ you have asked for a false dichotomy. Trying to say it can be one or the other is wrong,

Dude.

I directly quoted the Council of Trent.

I asked you to either Affirm or Deny the express wording of the Council of Trent.

You respond, "you have asked for a false dichotomy. Trying to say it can be one or the other is wrong". But as a Roman Catholic, you can't do that. As a Roman Catholic, you are REQUIRED to affirm the express wording of the Council of Trent, just as I directly quoted.

You can't expect to bark out some meandering bloviation about "false dichotomies" and expect to be taken seriously when I'm simply quoting your own Church Council to you for affirmation or denial. That doesn't make you look slick or sophisticated; just weak and silly.

Good grief, when I ask you whether or not you Affirm or Deny the express teaching of Trent that "the justice received is preserved and also increased before God through Good Works", and you respond "you have asked for a false dichotomy, Trying to say it can be one or the other is wrong" -- you're basically acknowledging before all the Religion Forum that you cannot in good conscience Affirm what your own Roman Church "infallibly" teaches.

And you call that presenting a Case?

Never mind. Don't worry about it. Take heart in the fact that you cannot in good conscience Affirm what your own Roman Church "infallibly" teaches; it is good that you cannot Affirm her teachings, for her teachings are Heresy.

Best, OP

[MadIvan]

I personally prefer this to the standard Jack Chick tracts. :)

Regards, Ivan

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

THAT'S the one I was looking for!!

Cool. (Cribbing link)

[Dominick]

I asked you to either Affirm or Deny the express wording of the Council of Trent.

No. you asked me a question you lifted from a Anti-Catholic publication, and now you slink off to play the wounded king. I repeated the Catholic position, and quoted the entirety of Trent.

I answered the question. The Church doesn't teach what you say it teaches.

I'm simply quoting your own Church Council to you for affirmation or denial.

Nope, you misquoted the council, this tortured translation of Trent is the father of many a tract from a Anti-Catholic. What the Church teaches is important. What you misquote is not.

you're basically acknowledging before all the Religion Forum that you cannot in good conscience Affirm what your own Roman Church "infallibly" teaches.

Like I said what you said the Church teaches isn't what they teach. The "whole Forum" has stated time and time to you that you are woefully wrong. The "whole Forum" can think what it likes. Acknowledging what you say the Church teaches, when that differs from the ACTUAL Church teaching would be wrong.

You psychic powers notwithstanding, what I acknowledge is what the Church teaches, which agrees wholly with Trent, and that is supported and ratified by what every other person on this particular thread has posted. Your posting of a partial quote from Trent doesn't make your case, I am pointing out the Church actual teachings are different from the caricature you are presenting.

Take heart in the fact that you cannot in good conscience Affirm what your own Roman Church "infallibly" teaches; it is good that you cannot Affirm her teachings, for her teachings are Heresy.

Actually the Anti-Catholicism that you spout are Heresy in Orthodoxy. I affirm the Teaching of the Church.

[SoothingDave]

Take heart in the fact that you cannot in good conscience Affirm what your own Roman Church "infallibly" teaches; it is good that you cannot Affirm her teachings, for her teachings are Heresy.

Any of us can affirm what Trent teaches. What we can not do is affirm what it is you think it teaches. Until you put aside your pride and try to understand the full picture, you will remain befuzzled.

It clearly teaches that justification is a free gift. And that the grace of justification continues to impell in us the desire and ability to do good works, which continue to sanctify and justify us, making us further capable and willing to do good works. It is positive reinforcement.

You read anything that says "works" as if it means that they are things that we do apart from God and that we therefore have a claim on God for rewards.

Catholics understand that references to "works" are about God working through us, through His grace, to provide for us rewards and merit that we never could have done on our own/

God doesn't pretend we are worthy of Heaven. He makes us worthy of Heaven by giving us the grace which makes us act in ways that bring about our justification and sanctification. We could do none of it without Him.

Until you understand this sharp difference, you will continue to misunderstand.

SD

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I asked you to either Affirm or Deny the express wording of the Council of Trent. ~~ No. you asked me a question you lifted from a Anti-Catholic publication, and now you slink off to play the wounded king. I repeated the Catholic position, and quoted the entirety of Trent. I answered the question. The Church doesn't teach what you say it teaches.

Dominick, you're a fraud.

HERE, from CFPeople.Org, "A community of faithful Roman Catholics. Faithful and obedient to Christ and to His Bride, the Church", is the EXACT WORDING of Council of Trent: Canons on Justification, Canon XXIV -- exactly as I have stated:

If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

You say that I asked you "a question you lifted from a Anti-Catholic publication", and you Lie. I asked you to Affirm or Deny the express teaching of the Council of Trent -- and in good conscience, you CANNOT.

So let's try it, ONE MORE TIME -- and no more made-up dissimulations from you that "you asked me a question you lifted from a Anti-Catholic publication", for I am directly quoting you the Exact Wording of Trent from a Catholic Apologetics organization.

Do you Affirm, or do you Deny, that "the justice received is preserved and also increased before God through Good Works"?
(re-read again the citation from CFPeople.Org, and then dare to claim that I have misrepresented Trent in any way)

YES, or NO -- and no more Evasions and Slanders and Lies from you;
ANSWER THE QUESTION!

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

You read anything that says "works" as if it means that they are things that we do apart from God and that we therefore have a claim on God for rewards.

No, I don't.

Which makes your whole Post utterly irrelevant.

Next time ask me what I believe, rather than attributing your own imaginations to me. You'll save time, and won't waste your energy.

Best, OP

[SoothingDave]

Which makes your whole Post utterly irrelevant.

I agree it's darn near irrelevant to attempt to dissuade you from what you are convinced you understand.

Next time ask me what I believe, rather than attributing your own imaginations to me. You'll save time, and won't waste your energy.

Heal thyself. Keep reading Trent without understanding the words and you'll keep telling us what we have to affirm or deny.

SD

[siunevada]

Got a location for that quote?

Yes.

Me.

I'm asking you a question:

"Each act of Good Work increases the Believer's Justification before God."

True, or False?

Best, OP

Sorry, I presumed since there were quotes that this was a statement contained in the Council's documents.

Short answers?

The way you understand Justification, FALSE.

The way the Council speaks of 'they' increasing in the justice received, TRUE.

I still think you are not in disagreement with the Council. They clearly say justification is something we receive without any merit on our own part. I think you would agree with that.

[SoothingDave]

OP:On this subject, the "infallible" Romanist Council of Trent absolutely mandates upon all Roman Catholics (and pretending the authority to damn unto Hell all who disagree with her), an ADDITIVE formula of Salvation and Good Works -- "Faith + Racking up enough Good Works = Justification"...

Trent: The Council of Trent: "On Justification", Canon 24 -- "If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema."

Now, where to begin? Let's begin with "justice received" from Trent. "Received" is a past-tense construction, indicating that the action is finished. The "justice" has been "received."

This makes foolishness of your claim that in order to receive "justification" the Church teaches that one must have "faith + racking up Good Works." Tthe justification is already received. Past tense.

And if you bother to read the other sections of Trent that others have put forth, it is clear that this reception of justification is gratuitous, the result of grace and not our own actions or merit.

So there goes that claim of yours. You really need to try reading for comprehension.

OP:However -- this heretical notion of Believers increasing or "earning" their Justification before God by performing Good Works in order to rack up "Salvation Credits",

Trent:The Council of Trent: "On Justification", Canon 24 -- "If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema."

Where do you find the word "earning"? That justification is earned? Do you think that because it is "preserved" and "increaed" that this somehow means it is "earned"?

This bit of confusion on your part seems to be the backbone of your argument.

That grace gives us justification and grace gives us the ability to do pleasing works and that grace rewards our works by graciously preserving and increasing our justification in no way means that we "earn" "Salvation Credits" or whatever way you wish to mock what you don't understand.

Try again, and this time don't put your own words into the Council's document.

SD

[Dominick]

Dominick, you're a fraud.

Personal attacks are not permitted here. Perhaps you should read the terms of service.

If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

Absolutly correct. The Church teaches as much. I am sure you will reach a wild conclusion from my affirmation that I thought I made before by listing the statement from the CCC, which is authoritative on what the Church teaches.

CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works;
Those who claim that your works do not deserve (justice) any reward from God,

but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof;
but instead claim that the works are only the fruits of Justification, and are not rewarded in Heaven,

let him be anathema.
then they are outside the Church.

This is reinforced by:
CANON XXV.-If any one saith, that, in every good work, the just sins venially at least, or-which is more intolerable still-mortally, and consequently deserves eternal punishments; and that for this cause only he is not damned, that God does not impute those works unto damnation; let him be anathema.
CANON XXVI.-If any one saith, that the just ought not, for their good works done in God, to expect and hope for an eternal recompense from God, through His mercy and the merit of Jesus Christ, if so be that they persevere to the end in well doing and in keeping the divine commandments; let him be anathema.

Your arguemnt is still on lifted from a number of Anti-Catholic tracts.

YES, or NO -- and no more Evasions and Slanders and Lies from you;
ANSWER THE QUESTION!

I told you what the Church correctly teaches. I said your conclusion is wrong, your use of the source is wrong, and went the extra step to show you a source with the correct answer, but it didn't follow your anti-Catholic "script". I would say let you be in anathema, but I see you have already been rejected by many orthodox Orthodox bretheren here.