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The ripple effect: a study of indulgences
Daily Catholic ^ | September 15, 2004 | Jacob Michael

Posted on 09/16/2004 10:09:17 PM PDT by AskStPhilomena

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To: Canticle_of_Deborah

As tragic as its destruction was, I take great consolation in the model Jesus Christ perfected: trial and death must come before resurrection.


21 posted on 09/17/2004 12:08:09 AM PDT by Fool for Christ (Whose fool are you?)
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To: sinkspur
Why, just today, I was trying to figure out whether saying the Angelus at noon would get me 1,000 days, or, if I waited five minutes and combined the Angelus with the Memorare, if I couldn't squeeze another 500 days out of it.

We need to know these things.


According to the norms (norm 5) all indulgences are either partial or plenary. So you don't have to be concerned about counting canonical days of penance.

sinkspur I admire you very much and find myself agreeing with you most of the time. This time, however, you are being obstinate without reason. While I agree with you that there are more important things that can be, and often are, discussed here. This teaching is not something to be scorned.

If, by gaining indulgences for the souls in Purgatory, I can help one soul gain the Beatific Vision just 1 minute earlier than she would have I have won a great victory, because that soul is giving glory to God in the most sublime way possible.

I am created to glorify God. We both will agree, that the saints in heaven glorify the Lord more perfectly than we do here on earth, because we are still beset by and attached to sin. That soul/saint now gives glory to God perfectly while I here on earth am not able to.

I am not in any way saying do not do the corporal works of mercy and instead gain indulgences for the souls in purgatory. That would be neglecting Jesus' direct command to "love others even as I have loved you." Listening to an old woman in a nursing home, being a Big Brother, babysitting so a couple can have some non-children time together, giving praise unexpectedly to someone doing a thankless job, etc, all are ways of visibly showing Christ's love to fallen humanity. Being the Body of Christ on earth, His hands to the world, is why we are still here, one way how we glorify Him here.

Both giving glory to Him here on earth by serving His creation (submit yourselves to one another) and helping others to give perfected glory to Him in heaven is what we are called to do.
22 posted on 09/17/2004 3:38:28 AM PDT by Talking_Mouse (Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just... Thomas Jefferson)
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To: AskStPhilomena
I will attempt to condense and distill the "best of the best" of what I've been exposed to regarding this matter, in the hopes that some of it will be easier to apprehend for you.....I will continue in this vein in a future installment

Oh, what a letdown! Like a handshake at the doorstep at the end of a date! The article ends with a cliffhanger!!!

Actually, I think I can see where the author is going with this. Indulgences are (if I'm reading the signs right) the flip-side of Penance. In other words, indulgences are the Church's offer of an opportunity to repent of sins monetarely. But I could be really, really wrong about this.

Please feel free to ping me if there's another installment. It was a well-written, well-reasoned article for as far as it took us.

23 posted on 09/17/2004 6:12:40 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (Psalm 73)
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To: sinkspur
While we're on this, what do I get if I spend an hour with a woman in a nursing home?

That's just sick.

Oh wait - you meant conversing with her. Never mind.

24 posted on 09/17/2004 6:14:30 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (Psalm 73)
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To: Alex Murphy
Alex, the Church doesn't "sell" indulgences any more.

It's very likely that 80% of Catholics today have no earthly idea what indulgences are.

25 posted on 09/17/2004 6:16:59 AM PDT by sinkspur ("I heard that the traditionalists have taken over the FR religion forum"--Cardinal Fanfani)
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To: sinkspur
Alex, the Church doesn't "sell" indulgences any more.

I'm sorry - who were you trying to have an argument with? When did I say the Church still does?

26 posted on 09/17/2004 6:28:18 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (Psalm 73)
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To: sinkspur; AskStPhilomena
A proper understanding of the nature of sin, and the need for repentance IS "the single most pressing issue in the Church today".
27 posted on 09/17/2004 6:34:14 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: pascendi; sinkspur

Because Sinky wants the Church to allow married priests so that he can be one--then we could have divorced priests just like the Protestants do--wouldn't that be a fine example?


28 posted on 09/17/2004 6:57:22 AM PDT by Mershon
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To: sinkspur; pascendi

"I get nothing for spending an hour listening to a lonely woman in a nursing home tell me about her life?

"I get nothing for being a Big Brother to a fatherless kid?'

You would have if you hadn't announced it to the entire world for all to see.

I think you know the answer. What is your problem, Sinky?


29 posted on 09/17/2004 6:59:16 AM PDT by Mershon
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To: Mershon

No problem.


30 posted on 09/17/2004 7:03:27 AM PDT by sinkspur ("I heard that the traditionalists have taken over the FR religion forum"--Cardinal Fanfani)
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To: AskStPhilomena

There is strong Scriptural direction that prayers for the dead help blot out the sins they incurred during life, which leads us to reflect on indulgences.

I quote:

2 Maccabees 39 et seq.
On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his men went to gather up the bodies of the slain and bury them with their kinsmen in their ancestral tombs. But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain. They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden.
Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.
But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.
_______

Here, the Bible tells us that prayers and almsgiving for the dead helps to blot out the sins they incurred during life. How much more efficacious, then, prayers and alms and charitable acts undertaken while we are yet alive to help blot out our own sins!


31 posted on 09/17/2004 8:12:30 AM PDT by Vicomte13 (Auta i Lome!)
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Comment #32 Removed by Moderator

To: sinkspur

"While we're on this, what do I get if I spend an hour with a woman in a nursing home?"

Probably depends on what you do with her and whether she is your wife or not!

+5,000 years for one of the nurses?


33 posted on 09/17/2004 9:15:53 AM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: pascendi

"In the name of charity, I will forego a most amusing and sarcastic question."

I should have read further down before I posted! Well done! You've certainly beaten me in the charity stakes. :(


34 posted on 09/17/2004 9:18:02 AM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: Tantumergo

I had to superglue my fingers to the desk to prevent myself from typing in the question I really had in mind. It was modern technology, not grace. lol!


35 posted on 09/17/2004 9:37:47 AM PDT by pascendi (Quicumque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem)
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To: Vicomte13

And there is this from St. Paul's stirring defense of the Resurrection:

"Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?"

I Corinthians 15:29 (NASB)

That passage raises some serious doctrinal issues, but it does acknowledge that devotions on behalf of dead were part of the practice of the early Church.


36 posted on 09/17/2004 10:58:00 AM PDT by good_fight (Anglo-Catholic in religion, classicist in literature, realist in politics.)
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To: good_fight

Indeed. 2 Maccabees and Paul both indicate that what we, the living, do can help to purify the dead. The whole concept of the Communion of Saints and the Ave Maria reposes on the belief that the prayers of the holy dead are efficacious for we, the living, in our own endless battle with sin and generally poor behavior.

While it is not directly on the point of indulgences, it is closely related. For if our prayers and efforts to do good can help to increase the grace even of the dead, imagine the effect that it can have on obtaining God's mercy for our own shortcomings!

Reducing it to an exact mathematical formula, of course, is a bit of a guess and not worth too much effort. Grosso modo, we know that it is good to pray, for the living, for the dead, and to ask others (living or the saintly dead) to pray for us. And we know that it is good to do good works and give generously too. The exact quantum of good done is, of course, not really spot on. Life is a pass/fail exam, apres tout.


37 posted on 09/17/2004 11:42:13 AM PDT by Vicomte13 (Auta i Lome!)
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To: AskStPhilomena
Thank you for posting (in full) this most insightful article -- looking forward to the next installment (that the author talked about near the end of thea article).

FReegards from Toronto...
38 posted on 09/18/2004 5:41:59 PM PDT by ConservativeStLouisGuy (11th FReeper Commandment: Thou Shalt Not Unnecessarily Excerpt)
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To: Fool for Christ

You may appreciate this article...
http://www.the-pope.com/purg.html


39 posted on 09/19/2004 10:17:54 PM PDT by AskStPhilomena
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To: Alex Murphy
When did I say the Church still does? [Sell Indulgences.]

You said: "In other words, indulgences are the Church's offer of an opportunity to repent of sins monetarely."

I am not trying to cause an argument, however, I fail to see how an indulgence could be monetary repentence without being sold. Also, I fail to see how somebody could read the foregoing article and make the suggestion which you did.
40 posted on 09/21/2004 4:06:02 AM PDT by tjwmason (Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.)
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