Posted on 06/17/2004 11:04:06 PM PDT by DominusMah
"'JP II' at the Roman sybagogue, April 13, 1986, where he apostasized from the Faith, yeat again, and denied Our Lord by praying "for the messiah who is yet to come"."
After the Second Vatican Catastrophe, the hierarchy no longer speak about "conversion to the one, true Faith", it's now all about "convergence of religions".
We all worship the same "God", just in different ways -
"Unity in diversity", "building a civilization of love", "Eucharistic hospitality", "everyone's invited to the community meal", "bring and share" - except of course if you're a traditional Catholic.
St. Gregory did. Go and look it up yourself - it's there. Since you consider yourself qualified to condemn the Pope, I'm sure you have Gregory's works available - it's letter 21.
you who deny the TRUE Church of Christ
CONDEMNED: The Roman Church is a synagogue of Satan, and the pope is not the next and immediate vicar of Christ and His apostles. (Council of Constance, DZ 616)
CONDEMNED: The pope is not the true and manifest successor of Peter, the first of the apostles, if he lives in a manner contrary to Peter. (Council of Constance, DZ 639)
CONDEMNED: For there is not a spark of evidence that there should be one head ruling the Church in spiritual affairs, which head always lives and is preserved with the Church militant herself. (Council of Constance, DZ 653)
Letter of St. Gregory VII to the Muslim King Al-Nasir of Mauretania
If you do a google search, this quote is only referenced by unionoffaiths.com, Jesuit Social Justice Center, The Catholic Legate, which spouts such nonsense as “In seeking to defend any statement by a high ranking Vatican cardinal (re:. Walter Kasper), one must always remember to keep in mind that there will exist a high level of nuance and subtlety which are invariably going to be imbued into the communication.”, a Novus church in Milton, LA, and last, and certainly most least, the USCCB.
They all post the partial quote or refer to it. Nobody posts the full letter; I wonder why.
It's cited in "Unitatis Redintegratio" - the context is that the king had released some Christian hostages, and Gregory wrote a letter thanking him (hence the "grace granted to you by God" remark).
Thanks. I appreciate the background.
One more question, if you will kindly indulge me; you said the king had released some hostages. Were there others still held captive?
"If God is all-powerful, why can't He be capable of something which we think is illogical? Didn't He create everything?"
Try to be serious here. I can't type in an entire introductory philosophy class.
"I believe God is all...which includes our concept of good and evil"
Well, you're mistaken about that.
"This is why I ask why people attempt to define God's capabilities by our human standards?"
The only one here who is "defining" God is you. Others are merely repeating what He has told us about Himself.
"I hear no background hum of original sin."
Take off the headphones.
"Theological truths are based on theory."
No, sorry, that's a factual error. Theological *errors* are based on theory, and theological *speculation* is based on theory, but theological truths are based on the truth.
May I suggest you read this book:
Moslems: Their Beliefs, Practices, and Politics
Hilaire Belloc and Gabriel Oussani
The book is available here:
http://www.angeluspress.org/catholic_apologetics.htm
(scroll about one third of the way down)
"I cannot but believe that a main unexpected thing of the future is the return of Islam." Thus warned Hilaire Belloc in 1936 long before the Christian West permitted millions of Moslems to immigrate and proliferate, building thousands of new mosques in the United States and Europe, including a huge one in Rome itself a few years ago. Belloc’s essay on Moslems, together with five important and meaty articles (first published in the Catholic Encyclopedia in 1908) by scholar Gabriel Oussani, comprise this timely new book. Belloc and Oussani’s writings make clear that Moslems and Christians don’t mix very well. The lesson: Christians need to reproduce to survive. Just as important: Christians cannot share political power with sworn enemies without dire consequences for their children and grandchildren.
Includes:
What Mohammed actually taught. Why it’s heresy
What’s in the Koran? A healthy sampling
How close the Moslems came to dominating Europe by force
Mohammed’s background, lineage, wives, offspring, disciples
Islam and women
Why the Moslem military threat was so real... and then collapsed
Why it’s a mistake to think Moslems can’t adapt to and use technology
The real origins and astonishingly rapid development of Islam
Why it remains a potent religious force to this day
Where Catholics and Moslems can agree doctrinally
Why Islam enjoyed a period of high culture and intellectual achievement
All about the Crusades
Christianity in Arabia: once dominant, then dominated by Mohammedans.
"Religion is at the root of all political movements and changes, and since we have here a very great religion physically paralyzed but morally intensely alive, we are in the presence of an unstable equilibrium....The suggestion that Islam may re-arise sounds fantastic —but this is only because men are always powerfully affected by the immediate past: one might say they are blinded by it....The second period of Islamic power may be delayed —but I doubt whether it can be permanently postponed." Hilarie Belloc, 1936. Prophetic!
Frightening prediction that has become true.
To get back to the topic of this thread, check out this modernist manger scene at Fatima...
http://www.santuario-fatima.pt/pic/1321_presepio_4062cda06a614.jpg
“Why would someone who believes in God, have to believe there is a true religion?”
If you’re asking that question, you’re way off the track.
Start with the fact that God exists. Men have a great, gaping, God-shaped hole in their hearts, and that sends them looking for Him. Satan interferes. Therefore, while some religions are based to a greater or lesser degree on Revelation, some are either defiled by or created at the instigation of Satan. Religions practicing human sacrifice come to mind as examples of the latter.
Of those religions that are based on Revelation, some accept a larger or smaller portion of Revelation. All are under attack by Satan, as we see from the pickle-smoocher crisis in the Episcopal Church.
It seems to me that a person who believes in God would think that religion the best that accepts the largest portion of Revelation.
The words of Musa re-echo the delicacy which, eight hundred years before, had nurtured the relations between Gregory VII and the Algerian Sultan Al Nasir, who, in making him a gift of some of his freedmen, asked the Pope to send him a priest so that he could minister to the Christians present in his sultunate. (30 Days, "No one is a foreigner in Rome")
SiSiNoNo article "Errors of Vatican II: Part V" states:
The Council seems to justify its statement that "the Moslems adore with us the one true God, etc." by the quote contained in a note of personal gratitude sent by St. Gregory VII, Pope from 1073 to 1085, to Anazir, Emir of Mauritania. The Emir had been well disposed to oblige certain of the Pope's requests and had also been generous concerning some Christian whom he had taken prisoner. In this letter, the Pope stated that this act of "goodness" was "inspired by God," who commanded us to love our neighbor, and specifically asks "from us and you...that we believe in and confess the same God, although by different modes (licet diverso modo), that we praise and venerate each day the Creator of the ages and master of this world" (PL, 148, 451 A). How can such a statement be explained? The answer: by that era's ignorance regarding the religion founded by Mohammed.
That is just bizarre.
I am serious. It's sad that you think God incapable of something. We are talking about the creator of all...I don't think He cares about your concept of logic or philosophy.
I may be mistaken, and you may be...it really doesn't matter since none of this can be validated anyway...it's what we believe...that's all.
No, you define God by limiting Him to such things as logic, philosophical studies, the bible, etc. You believe He has spoken about Himself, I don't.
I have no headphones...you hear what God wants you to hear, and others hear what God wants them to hear.
Sorry, I should have said...there are no theological truths...just theories.
I'm not trying to be on a track. I believe in God, that is enough for me. I don't see the point in religion. I believe God is in everyone...He made them the way they are, they live as they are supposed to.
"I believe in God, that is enough for me."
Actually, it's not. There are some things God wants you to do, and others he wants you to refrain from doing.
"I don't see the point in religion."
The lack there is in you.
"I believe God is in everyone."
Yes, and?
"He made them the way they are, they live as they are supposed to."
No, he made them, then they were corrupted by subsequent events. Do you suppose that Jeffrey Dahmer was doing what God wanted him to?
When someone lives as he is supposed to, it is so unusual that they call him "a saint."
"I am serious. It's sad that you think God incapable of something."
No, it's sad that you don't realize how bootless it is to argue over whether God is "capable" of absurdity.
"I don't think He cares about your concept of logic or philosophy."
Of course he does. He cares about it very much, and wants me to get it right.
"it really doesn't matter since none of this can be validated anyway...it's what we believe...that's all."
Nope, sorry, that's another factual error.
"No, you define God by limiting Him to such things as logic, philosophical studies, the bible, etc."
You need to do some research into the meaning of the word, "define."
"You believe He has spoken about Himself, I don't."
And yet another factual error.
"I have no headphones."
And fish have no water.
"you hear what God wants you to hear, and others hear what God wants them to hear."
No, actually, we often refuse to hear what God wants us to hear. More often than we listen, for most of us. Today, of course, few people even bother to listen.
"Sorry, I should have said...there are no theological truths...just theories."
And wrap it up with yet another factual error.
How can you possibly say what is enough for me? I don't believe you or anyone, knows what God wants.
I don't believe there is anything lacking in anyone's beliefs about God or religion. If God wants me to believe in a certain way, then that's the way it is.
'I believe God is in everyone'..That was in response to the first 2 sentences in para 3 of #170.
I don't believe they were corrupted. I do not know what God wants, but I do know what happens.....it would appear, that with God being all-powerful, and knowing beforehand what someone is going to do, that in His infinite wisdom and according to His scheme, all things happen as He would have them happen.
Mr. Dahmer was not a saint, but I believe he did as he was supposed to...I don't question what God does, as I don't believe I have the ability or the right.
To many the concept of the Trinity, resurrection, virgin birth, forgiveness of sins, original sin, etc. are absurd. Does that make it so?
We think quite differently about what we believe God cares about.
If you could validate any of what we are talking about, please do.
I believe my use of the word define is adequate.
Please identify a theological truth.
"How can you possibly say what is enough for me?"
It's not hard. Really.
"I don't believe you or anyone, knows what God wants."
Wrong again.
"If God wants me to believe in a certain way, then that's the way it is."
You have really not thought any of this through, nor have you been exposed to instruction from anyone competent to offer it. God gave us free will, and he respects it. That includes the freedom to defy and oppose Him, and to destroy ourselves.
"I don't believe they were corrupted."
Wtong again.
"all things happen as He would have them happen."
That's an idea your education to date simply hasn't equipped you to deal with. The short answer is, that for reasons of His own, God allows things to happen that offend and hurt Him.
"but I believe (Jeffrey Dahmer) did as he was supposed to"
Woah. You need a philosophical and theology emergency room, followed by a long stay in the P&T ICU.
You're pretty young, right?
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