Cardinal Maida OK's Tridentine Mass for Detroit

Crux News ^ | 3rd June 2004

[AskStPhilomena]

I can understand if you're angry at the Church for the loss of so many souls, but that's no reason to brand as "schismatic" all those more conservative and less naive than yourself, who've managed to keep the authentic Catholic Faith alive in their families despite the widespread apostasy of the last 40 years. You can go ahead and call us names if it makes you feel better, but please don't pontificate as if you have the only "patent" on St Philomena. Hopefully the following article will assist your understanding:
http://www.traditio.com/tradlib/philomen.txt
Now, please save your tantrums for when you're alone in your room.

[ninenot]

Yes, we sing them anyway.

In fact, I just looked up Good Friday in the Gregorian Missal, which is a Solesmes publication copyrighted 1990; a N.O. missal, as it were.

The Reproaches follow the Adoration of the Cross. Of course in this particular missal, Latin & Greek are used. The version our choir sings uses English as well. The reproaches themselves are sung in English.

[broadsword]

Why am I not surprised that you would choose these words to express yourself?

You have made a career on FR of denigrating traditionalists who find grave, destructive errors in the Novus Ordo and happenings within the Church subsequent to Vatican II.

Anyone who points out the problems with the Church hierarchy and the opportunities missed by Pope John Paul II to reverse the circus and return the Church to the pinnacle once occupied in the world, risks your phony and sophomoric scorn.

Catholic means universal, but today from church to church, state to state, nation to nation there is nothing universal or catholic about the Catholic Church. Many attendees at today's masses have gone beyond being "cafeteria Catholics" they have arrived at a state of un-piety as they chatter along until the procession, then upon receiving the Sacred Host, head directly out the backdoors to their cars. Mass is over for them and their unconscious disrespect speaks volumes about the Novus Ordo "service."

So perfectly put, my friend!

Anyone who cheers the present devastation and degradation of the Church has obviously got to be an enemy of the Church. Diabolically clever, perhaps, but an enemy nonetheless.

P.S. I'd like to make a bumper sticker out of your tagline and drive around campus here.

[AskStPhilomena]

Before you resort to further outbursts, please consider the following:
"It would do us well to reread the Epistle of St. James. His advice to guard the tongue is widely ignored today. The prime time sitcoms serve as evidence that the quick and witty retort has become the norm in friendly conversation. Are these persons truly better off after saying everything that comes to mind? Or do you get the feeling at the end of the segment that everyone is more wounded than before? Have we really benefited by replacing charity and restraint with this spontaneous and impulsive frankness? How I long for a return to the days of courtesy and civility."
The above advice is taken from the following article:
http://www.traditioninaction.org/Cultural/C011cpFrankness_Blanchard.htm

[broadsword]

And did that crude personal attack bring you to a fuller understand of the Church and a deeper faith in the Love of Christians everywhere?

Those names roll quite easily off a hateful tongue, but, thank God, do not always serve to silence those at whom they are thrown. Jeep making your points, Jesse.

Yours in Christ,

Jesse

[broadsword]

All in favor of letting sodomites skate.

Things that make you go, "Hmmm..."

[broadsword]

LOL! Jeep=Keep. I suppose it goes along with the earlier Maxima and Lexus.

[RFT1]

The old mass as normally celebrated has the biblical readings of the day re read in English/vernacular as celebrated currently. But as some others have said, language is not the core issue involved, it is rubrics and orthodoxy. It is a shame that there are so few Anglican Use parishes around, that use the beauty of the high church anglican liturgy while using Tridentine rurbics.

[ninenot]

The old mass as normally celebrated has the biblical readings of the day re read in English/vernacular as celebrated currently.

Hate to be picky, RFT1, but that's NOT a Tridentine Rite rubric.

In the Old Rite, the priest says/sings the Epistle and Gospel at the altar in Latin, and then reads them in English from the pulpit, prior to the sermon.

[RFT1]

That is what I menat by re read the Epistle and Gospel in English.

[Diva]

could you comment on the article's mention of "mass emigration" of seminarians from SHMS? Any truth to this?

Sorry it has taken me awhile to get back and respond...busy weekend. As I recall from reading the article it sounded as though it was an emigration over time. Walking down the hallway you can see the progression of emigration away from Sacred Heart Major Seminary (SHMS) in Detroit by looking at the class pictures which line the walls. I have been there on several occasions and that is the thing that struck me the most. In the 50's there were SO many, by 1996 I think there were perhaps 3. It has gotten a lot better in the last 6 years thanks to Bishop Vigneron but also because St. John's Provincial Seminary was shut down in the mid-80's.

Many may find this hard to believe but up until about the time of Bishop Vigneron's taking over pornographic movies were being shown at the seminary. I believe this is in Michael Rose' book and it has been independently confirmed to me by multiple sources. I have been told that there were girlfriends and boyfriends of the seminarians seen coming and going. I have a hard time imagining this sort of thing when Bishop Neinstedt was there (right before Vigneron) but I am sure there were those who were sympathetic to the idea of "theraputic sex" for priests and semiarians who might have helped open doors or turned the other way, so to speak.

Right now there are about 80 seminarians at SHMS and this past week 8 or 9 were ordained, much better than 6 or 7 years ago, but not that great. Down the line in about 3 or 4 years there will be more if the seminary can hold on to them as most of these guys are moderate to conservative. I think if they leave the Philosophy dept alone and continue to improve the Theology Dept. most of the seminarians will stay. Much will be revealed in the upcoming academic year.

[rogator]

"Pope is the supreme judge in the Church on earth, his rulings are final. You can try to dismiss it as a “mere surmise” but he made a very clear statement in a very clear letter that was very formal."


Pope St. Pius V's Quo Primum also contains "a very clear statement in a very clear letter that was very formal".

Any reasonable person reading that statement (below) would conclude that that pope authorized any priest to say Mass according to the 1570 Missal forever.

"...in virtue of Our Apostolic authority, We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully be used."

[ninenot]

Thanks for your time. 80 in Sem is not a bad number at all...

Milwaukee also had the porn flicks (Weakland was here...) and the seminarians would regularly go out cruising the bars.

I don't know what's happened there since the arrival of Dolan, but the Sem certainly has to be priority #1. I know that he brought in a new Voc Director. However, the guy is from the European Sem which had some rumors flying on a blogsite. We'll see. Dolan apparently knows the guy and brought him in; we can assume that he's basically there for intelligence-gathering purposes.

I can tell you that the music program at your Sem has been top-notch for the last few years. Vigneron was emphatic that the men would learn Chant, no exceptions. And they have, along with sound and practical principles of LITURGICAL MUSIC for the Church.

AFAIC, that's all one needs, but then, I'm a church musician. Perhaps theology is important, too...

[ninenot]

Yup. It's clear to me that Pius V made his statement, and Paul VI, a successor to Peter with equal authority, made his own statement, too.

I don't happen to like the NO and it has been more troublesome than any other fruit of the Council--but the authority of the Pope cannot be questioned.

[rogator]

Patent also said in his earlier posting that "Vatican I made it quite clear that the Pope is the supreme judge in the Church on earth, his rulings are final."
My point is that when two popes make contradictory rulings, only one can be right regardless of their authority.
If a current pope can overrule the obvious intent of an earlier pope regarding the perpetual right of priests to say Mass in a specified manner, then no papal ruling is "final".
The pope said "in perpetuity" so either he (Pius V) or Paul VI is wrong. The other alternative is that we are mis-interpreting one or the other of them. Pius V's language is crystal clear. Paul VI's is not. I am inclined, therefore, to agree with the folks who say that Paul VI never formally abrogated the right of any priest to say the Mass using the 1570 Missal.
It probably doesn't amount to a hill of beans anyway; since it appears as if the church is actually being run by bishops and cliques of bishops who don't give a hoot what the pope suggests or directs.

[patent]

>>>>Patent also said in his earlier posting that "Vatican I made it quite clear that the Pope is the supreme judge in the Church on earth, his rulings are final." My point is that when two popes make contradictory rulings, only one can be right regardless of their authority.

What I meant by "final" is that there is no higher tribunal to appeal to. You can't appeal from the Pope to an Ecumenical council, for example. The Old Catholics, I believe, tried to argue one could do this, and this idea was shot down. Of course, they left the Church and went schismatic, though they denied it vehemently for quite some time.

On the other hand, it is not "final" in the sense of unchangable. A pope could excommunicate someone, and then the individual reprents. The very same Pope could then lift that excommunication. Or, if that original Pope had died, the next Pope could lift that excommunication. In that case it wasn't as though the first Pope, or the second Pope was wrong, but rather that circumstances changed.

This is how it is with the Rite of the Mass. Many of the POpes who immediately followd Pius V CHANGED parts of the Tridentine, despite the clear admonition in Quo Primum that the Mass be said EXACTLY as written by Pius V.

It wasn't that Pius V was wrong with the Tridentine. It wasn't that those who followed him were wrong. Pius set the discipline for his time, and the Popes that followed him set it for thier time.

Therefore, it is in error to claim that Pius V could bind Paul VI on the liturgy. Pius V could no more bind Paul VI than he could bind any of the other Popes who changed the Mass. They all had the power to abrogate, change, or leave the same the current liturgy, as Pius X stated quite clearly once upon a time. Many of them did so. To interpret quo primum so strickly and as eternally binding is really to assume we haven't had a proper mass since the 1500s.

patent

[rogator]

"Pius set the discipline for his time, and the Popes that followed him set it for thier time."

Pius did not say "during my pontificate", he said "in perpetuity".
It is not clear that the right to use the 1570 Missal has been abrogated.

[patent]

"Pius set the discipline for his time, and the Popes that followed him set it for thier time."

Pius did not say "during my pontificate", he said "in perpetuity".

Right. He also said:

We specifically command each and every patriarch, administrator, and all other persons or whatever ecclesiastical dignity they may be, be they even cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, or possessed of any other rank or pre-eminence, and We order them in virtue of holy obedience to chant or to read the Mass according to the rite and manner and norm herewith laid down by Us and, hereafter, to discontinue and completely discard all other rubrics and rites of other missals, however ancient, which they have customarily followed; and they must not in celebrating Mass presume to introduce any ceremonies or recite any prayers other than those contained in this Missal.

We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to be followed absolutely,

In other words, you can’t change a single jot or word in that Missal. You must follow it absolutely.

If your argument is correct, that quo primum makes it so that you can’t ever abrogate the Tridentine, then I assume you are also aware that it ALSO makes it so that you can’t ever change any part of the Tridentine.

I assume you are also aware that the 1962 missal IS NOT the same as the one Pius V handed out. In otherwords, if your interpretation is correct, it is not the 1962 missal you can use, but Pius’ missal. In fact, if your interpretation is correct its been about four centuries since anyone has used a proper liturgy.

It is not clear that the right to use the 1570 Missal has been abrogated.

Yes it is. It is very clear. You just won’t ever accept that.

patent