Cultural Revolution: The ELCA's attempt to bless same-sex marriages

Chronicles Magazine ^ | May 2004 | Aaron D. Worf

[redgolum]

Send out the Lutheran Ping Tony.

With the ELCA heading for a train wreck with the homo marriage thing, I doubt that the denomination will last to long.

The scary thing is the LCMS convention this year is going to be interesting also. There is a group of people who want to divide the church of the Yankee stadium issue, and some who will not rest until that happens. It should be a long summer.

[StAthanasiustheGreat]

The Praying before other Gods thing, right? Which is worse for a LCMS pastor, pray with a Catholic Bishop, a Episcopal Priest, a Southern Baptist Minister, a Jewish Rabbi or a Iman/Mullah? Or, are they all the same?

[redgolum]

The Praying before other Gods thing, right? Which is worse for a LCMS pastor, pray with a Catholic Bishop, a Episcopal Priest, a Southern Baptist Minister, a Jewish Rabbi or a Iman/Mullah? Or, are they all the same?


Depends on who you talk to. Some will say that praying with anyone other than an LCMS member (preferably from you own congregation) is wrong and an excomunicatable offense. The standard is that it is "ok" to pray with any Nicene Christian, but again that depends on who you talk to.

One significant thing is that the current president of the LCMS went to the installation (not sure if that is the correct term) of Archbishop Burke. This caused a bit of a scandal in those who already want him removed, and will split the synod to do it. These people make the Catholic Rad Trads look like kindergarten teachers at times! I have had a few discussions with some of the more radical Uber conservatives, and they tend to get on my nerves.

[Charles Henrickson]

The scary thing is the LCMS convention this year is going to be interesting also. There is a group of people who want to divide the church of the Yankee stadium issue, and some who will not rest until that happens. . . . These people make the Catholic Rad Trads look like kindergarten teachers at times! I have had a few discussions with some of the more radical Uber conservatives, and they tend to get on my nerves.

I guess I'm one of those "radical Uber conservatives" who would get on your nerves, then, Red. :-) 'Cause I'm very much opposed to what David Benke and Jerry Kieschnick have done in regard to the "A Prayer for America" service at Yankee Stadium. In fact, I have documented all the facts and analyzed and written extensively about it:

Yankee Stadium Prayer Service: An Analysis

IMO, it is they--Benke and Kieschnick and the JesusFirst and DayStar groups--who have exacerbated the division in our synod, by their departure from our historic position on unionism and syncretism.

[TXBSAFH]

Let me put it point blank. The ELCA ok's this travesty I will be out of it like shot from a gun. Missiour Synod here I come.

[MegaSilver]

Let me put it point blank. The ELCA ok's this travesty I will be out of it like shot from a gun. Missiour Synod here I come.

Good.

OTOH, if they're acting like this, why wait to bail out? Aren't they already in the toilet if they even have to THINK about this?

[TXBSAFH]

The church I go to is pretty conservative anf my family has been members for 3 generations. I personally hope they go as a church Missiour Synod.

[BJClinton]

From your tagline:

(LCMS pastor...

Maybe you can help me. Could you point out where Jeses Christ said women cannot be ministers in His church?

[redgolum]

LOL!

I agree that Beneke at YS was at best extremely poor judgment, but what confuses me is that in the district I was in at the time some pastors wanted to leave the LCMS immediately, and not try to sort out what that event happened. We talked about the goings on in one of the adult Bible classes a few times, and the impression I got was that there was a much bigger political agenda than there was concern about unionism at YS.

As far as Jesus First and Day Star, I honestly thought that those programs had been retired. A pastor whom I respect was once very interested in Day Star, but after he investigated it said it was a pretty "empty" program and that we would not be doing anything like that.

What concerns me far more than YS or Day Star is the rumors I keep hearing that there are parties that are exploring ordaining women. If that comes to pass, i will leave the LCMS.

[Colofornian]

Depends on who you talk to. Some will say that praying with anyone other than an LCMS member (preferably from you own congregation) is wrong and an excomunicatable offense. The standard is that it is "ok" to pray with any Nicene Christian, but again that depends on who you talk to.

Hey, it took a two-year study by the Missouri folks in the mid-fifties before they finally came to the conclusion that it was Okay to pray with other non-Missouri Lutherans as long as a disclaimer was attached that such folks were not in pulpit & altar fellowship w/other such Lutherans.

Charles, I'd like your opinion on that.

[Colofornian]

Let me put it point blank. The ELCA ok's this travesty I will be out of it like shot from a gun. Missiour Synod here I come.

Well, let's see. Offering plate $ goes toward health insurance premiums for ELCA churchworkers which includes aborting the next generation (churchworkers' offspring), but you're not "out of it like shot from a gun."

The ELCA has in many ways promoted homosexuality but you're not "out of it like shot from a gun."

[BQ91]

Well, I am as conservative as you get. I believe in the in-errancy of the Bible. Very deeply confessional LCMS Lutheran. I am also a voting lay delegate to the St. Louis National convention in July - a 35 year old male. I have read every thing Jesus First, etc, but Also Herram Otto Christian News, IMO these guys are over the top. At First I was split on all this. But know I am a Kieschnick support, I know another delegate that 6 months ago opposed him ,but now supports him. Also FYI I will in no way support any resolution allowing woman pastors. The problem I see it is not that these guys are conservative or liberal, they are all very conservative confessional Lutherans. The difference is what some want to call moderates are people willing change some hymns, music, make the service more comtempary and less traditional, and this really upsets the traditional people, The moderates are also much more mission driven. As long as we keep the conservative theological stance and confessional and sacramental foundation, whether we sing a Mighty fortress or some new praise music should not matter as Long as we are a Witness of Jesus Christ, and Stay theologically true to the Bible. As I see it the LCMS will stay conservative. The Battle is do we force each church stay traditional or allow some contemporary change that will allow us to reach out to unchurch that would not normally go to a old time traditional Lutheran service. Please note I do not advocate sacerficing our Christian Principle or beliefs, ie, Woman ordained Pastors, closed communion, Homosexuals, abortion, fundamental bible errancy, Confession, etc.
But do at tact someone for praying in Christ name after a national tragic event, and want them kicked out of the church IMO is just Church Politics. And at what cost,what if one person listing had never heard the name Jesus, and because of that was led to Christ by the Spirit? what if I was put is a tragic situation with a group of people reached down at the same time and prayed together at the end as we prayed I ended in Jesus, name, but the guy next to me said Allah? Am I to be kicked out of the LCMS? Oh I can see the response, but the NYC event was a church service, well I just don't see it that way, I have taken my voting seriously and asked must all of the people in my Church and some others in my circuit and they agree. We one time had a tragic event happen in our community, we had a community gathering honoring the lost, our pastor LCMS, the ELCA, Baptist, Catholic, Methodist where all there, had prayers, said poems etc. There were some speakers who may not have been speakers, do you really thank, that since 1/5 of those lost we should not have participated, the congregation would not have stood still. In the LCMS constitution it states that under unique events, exceptions are to be made.
But as always, I will be in Prayer up until July 10th, with a open heart and mind, calling on the spirit to guide me in my vote at the LCMS convention, and if it is his will my votes may change.

In Christ

[EdReform]

Ping

What We Can Do To Help Defeat the "Gay" Agenda

Homosexual Agenda: Categorical Index of Links (Version 1.1)

Myth and Reality about Homosexuality--Sexual Orientation Section, Guide to Family Issues"

[little jeremiah]

Homosexual Agenda Ping - Coming to A Church Near You!

Well, the radical "gay" activists' plan to infiltrate churches (and synagogues) and change them into bath houses is working like magic!

I certainly hope the conservative (aka as "sane") Lutherans either leave en masse or take back the reins from the homosexuals and their handmaidens.

Let me know if anyone wants on/off this pinglist.

[Charles Henrickson]

Maybe you can help me. Could you point out where Jeses Christ said women cannot be ministers in His church?

Maybe you can help me: Why do want to know? Is it because you think that women should be pastors? Or is it because you want help in articulating the biblical case that there should not be women pastors?

Also, the burden of proof is not on those who believe that women should not be pastors. Rather, the burden of proof (onus probationis) is on those who favor woman pastors, since that is the innovation in the church after thousands of years otherwise (going back even to the Old Testament church). It is always the innovators who have to make their case.

Nonetheless, I can give you a few biblical reasons just briefly. Jesus appointed only male apostles, no women, even though there were women who had followed his ministry and witnessed his resurrection. Likewise, Christ's apostles Paul and Peter both explicitly state--in several passages--that it is not given to women to teach or have authority over men. And in the list of qualifications for a pastor, Paul talks about a pastor being "the husband of one wife," presuming there that the pastor will be a male.