Posted on 05/31/2004 12:24:47 PM PDT by Destro
Just to point out the obvious; that this article is against the secret pre-tribulation rapture theory of dispensationalism.
Not all folks who believe accept the general idea of a "rapture" ala 1 Thess 4, accept the Darby/Scofield inventions. The biblical view is that the rapture and second coming are the same event. Different terms are used to highlight different subjects. In the case of teh "second coming" the subject is Christ. In the case of the "rapture" the subject is the saints.
There is no objective evidence to suggest that the modern, secular state of Israel is a legitimate expression of biblical Israel.
This is a fantasy invented by dispensational prophecy preacher to sell books to the unwashed.
Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
The work of Nicaea was taken up by the second Ecumenical Council, held at Constantinople in 381. This council expanded and adapted the Nicene Creed, developing in particular the teaching upon the Holy Spirit, whom it affirmed to be God even as the Father and Son are God: 'who proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and together glorified'. The council also altered the provisions of the Sixth Canon of Nicaea. The position of Constantinople, now the capital of the Empire, could no longer be ignored, and it was assigned the second place, after Rome and above Alexandria. 'The Bishop of Constantinople shall have the prerogatives of honour after the Bishop of Rome, because Constantinople is New Rome' (Canon III).
No one denies that the dead in Christ rise first.
Simply one of the points in the premil/amil debate.
Exactly...the Church existed for 400 years before the "Bible" was put together. Scripture was created for the CHURCH.....not the other way around!
Exactly...
The filioque was HERESY in 1054, and it is STILL HERESY!
what about SOSA SCRIPTURA?
the gospel according to sammy sosa
http://www.lamblion.com/prophecy/key/Key-06.php
The Rapture of the Church
What is it and when will it take place?
by Dr. David R. Reagan
The Rapture is a glorious event which God has promised to the Church. The promise is that someday very soon, at the blowing of a trumpet and the shout of an archangel, Jesus will appear in the sky and take up His Church, living and dead, to Heaven.
The Term
The term, Rapture, comes from a Latin word that means to catch up, to snatch away, or to take out. It is a Biblical word that comes right out of the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. The word is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. In the New American Standard Version, the English phrase, caught up, is used. The same phrase is used in the King James and New International Versions.
A Promise to the Church
The concept of the Rapture was not revealed to the Old Testament prophets because it is a promise to the New Testament Church and not to the saints of God who lived before the establishment of the Church.
The saints of Old Testament times will be resurrected at the end of the Tribulation and not at the time of the Rapture of the Church. Daniel reveals this fact in Daniel 12:1-2 where he says that the saints of that age will be resurrected at the end of the time of distress.
Biblical References
The first clear mention of the Rapture in Scripture is found in the words of Jesus recorded in John 14:1-4. Jesus said, I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
The most detailed revelation of the actual events related to the Rapture is given by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. He says that when Jesus appears, the dead in Christ (Church age saints) will be resurrected and caught up first. Then, those of us who are alive in Christ will be translated to meet the Lord in the air. Paul then exhorts us to comfort one another with these words.
Paul mentions the Rapture again in 1 Corinthians 15 - his famous chapter on the resurrection of the dead:
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. (verses 51 and 52)
Pauls reference here to being changed is an allusion to the fact that the saints will receive glorified bodies that will be perfected, imperishable and immortal (1 Cor. 15:42-44, and 50-55).
The Timing
The most controversial aspect of the Rapture is its timing. Some place it at the end of the Tribulation, making it one and the same event as the Second Coming. Others place it in the middle of the Tribulation. Still others believe that it will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation.
The reason for these differing viewpoints is that the exact time of the Rapture is not precisely revealed in scripture. It is only inferred. There is, therefore, room for honest differences of opinion, and lines of fellowship should certainly not be drawn over differences regarding this point, even though it is an important point.
Post-Tribulation Rapture
Those who place the timing at the end of the Tribulation usually base their argument on two parables in Matthew 13 and on the Lords Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24.
In Matthew 24 the Lord portrays His gathering of the saints as an event that will take place immediately after the tribulation of those days (Matt. 24:29). This certainly sounds like a post-Tribulation Rapture. But it must be kept in mind that the book of Matthew was written to the Jews, and therefore the recording of Jesus speech by Matthew has a distinctively Jewish flavor to it as compared to Lukes record of the same speech.
Note, for example, Matthews references to Judea and to Jewish law regarding travel on the Sabbath (Matt. 24:15-20). These are omitted in Lukes account. Instead, Luke speaks of the saints looking up for deliverance to escape all these things when the end time signs begin to take place (Luke 21:28 and 36). The saints in Matthew are instructed to flee from Judea and hide. The saints in Luke are told to look up for deliverance.
It appears, therefore, that Matthew and Luke are speaking of two different sets of saints. The saints in Matthews account are most likely Jews who receive Jesus as their Messiah during the Tribulation. The saints in Luke are those who receive Christ before the Tribulation begins. Most of those who accept the Lord during the Tribulation will be martyred (Rev. 7:9-14). Those who live to the end will be gathered by the angels of the Lord (Matt. 24:31).
The parable of the wheat and tares (Matt. 13:24-30) and the parable of the dragnet (Matt. 13:47-50) can be explained in the same way. They refer to a separation of saints and sinners that will take place at the end of the Tribulation. The saints are those who receive Jesus as their Savior during the Tribulation (Gentile and Jew) and who live to the end of that awful period.
Mid-Tribulation Rapture
There are variations of the mid-Tribulation Rapture concept. The most common is that the Church will be taken out in the exact middle of the Tribulation, at the point in time when the Antichrist is revealed.
This concept is based upon a statement in 1 Corinthians 15:52 which says that the Rapture will occur at the blowing of the last trumpet. This trumpet is then identified with the seventh trumpet of the trumpet judgments in the book of Revelation. Since the blowing of the seventh trumpet is recorded in Revelation 11, the mid-point of the Tribulation, the conclusion is that the Rapture must occur in the middle of the Tribulation.
But there are two problems with this interpretation. The first is that the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 is blown for believers whereas the seven trumpets of Revelation 8, 9 and 11 are sounded for unbelievers. The Revelation trumpets have no relevance for the Church. The last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 is a trumpet for the righteous. The last trumpet for the unrighteous is the one described in Revelation 11.
Another problem with this interpretation is that the passage in Revelation 11 that portrays the sounding of the seventh trumpet is a flash forward to the end of the Tribulation. Flash forwards are very common in the book of Revelation. They occur after something terrible is described in order to assure the reader that everything is going to turn out all right when Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation.
Thus, the eighth and ninth chapters of Revelation, which describe the horrors of the trumpet judgments, are followed immediately by a flash forward in chapter 10 that pictures the return of Jesus in victory at the end of the Tribulation. The mid-Tribulation action resumes in chapter 11 with a description of the killing of the two great prophets of God by the Antichrist. Then, to offset that terrible event, we are presented with another flash forward, beginning with verse 15. The seventh trumpet is sounded and we find ourselves propelled forward to the end of the Tribulation when the kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of our Lord.
The point is that the seventh trumpet of Revelation relates to the end of the Tribulation and not the middle. It is therefore no basis for an argument in behalf of a mid-Tribulation Rapture.
Pre-Wrath Rapture
The cornerstone of this concept is that the terrifying events during the first half of the Tribulation are due to the wrath of Man and Satan, and not to God. Since the Church is only promised protection from the wrath of God, the Rapture will not occur until near the end of the Tribulation when God will pour out His wrath on the world.
This concept raises a serious theological problem because it questions the sovereignty of God. It assumes that Man and Satan can act apart from Gods will, when the fact of the matter is that neither can do anything God is not willing to permit. The Bible often portrays God carrying out His will through evil persons or nations. One of the classic examples is when He allowed the evil nation of Babylon to discipline Israel by destroying Jerusalem and the Temple and by carrying the surviving Jews away into captivity. It was an action that prompted the prophet Habakkuk to ask why God would punish those who are evil with those who are more evil (Habakkuk 1:13).
Any carnage wrought by Man or Satan during the Tribulation will still constitute the wrath of God. They will simply be His instruments. The Bible says God sits in the heavens and laughs over the plots and deeds of evil men, not because He does not care, but because He has everything under control (Psalm 2:1-6). The point is that He has the wisdom and power to orchestrate all evil to the triumph of His will in history. Thats why the psalmist wrote that the wrath of man shall praise You [God] (Psalm 76:10).
I think it is also important to note that when God pours out His wrath, He does not always do so directly. One of His most common ways is to simply back away from the nation or person and lower the hedge of protection around them. This is clearly spelled out in Romans 1:18-32. That passage says that when people rebel against God to the point that they begin to worship the creation rather than the Creator, God gives them over to the evil in their hearts. In other words, He just steps back and lets evil multiply. The passage further states that if they still refuse to repent, He steps back again and gives them over to degrading passions. And if they persist in their rebellion and sin, He finally gives them over to a depraved mind at which point the society destroys itself. Such destruction could be viewed as the wrath of Man, but it is really the wrath of God working through Man.
There is another serious problem with the pre-wrath Rapture concept. It relates to the fact that all the wrath of Revelation is specifically portrayed as the wrath of God. Where do the seal judgments originate? The answer is from the throne of God as Jesus opens each seal of the scroll that was in the Fathers right hand (Revelation 6:1). And where do the trumpet judgments originate? The same place from the throne of God (Revelation 8:2). When we arrive at the bowl judgments in Revelation 15:1, we are told that with them, the wrath of God is finished.
Another problem with the pre-wrath concept is that it does violence to the chronological order of Revelation. The seal judgments are viewed as the wrath of Man and Satan, occurring during the first half of the Tribulation. The trumpet and bowl judgments are considered to be the wrath of God.
They are lumped together at the end of the Tribulation. There is no justification for putting the trumpet judgments at the end of the Tribulation. They are clearly placed in the first half of the Tribulation in the chronological layout of the book of Revelation.
One final problem with the pre-wrath concept of the Rapture is that it disputes the fact that there is no purpose for the Church being in the Tribulation. The Tribulation is the 70th week of Daniel, a time devoted to God accomplishing His purposes among the Jewish people, not the Church.
The Pre-Tribulation Rapture
I believe the best inference of Scripture is that the Rapture will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation. The most important reason I believe this has to do with the issue of imminence. Over and over in Scripture we are told to watch for the appearing of the Lord. We are told to be ready (Matt. 24:44), to be on the alert (Matt. 24:42), to be dressed in readiness (Luke 12:35), and to keep your lamps alight (Luke 12:35). The clear force of these persistent warnings is that Jesus can appear at any moment.
Only the pre-Tribulation concept of the Rapture allows for the imminence of the Lords appearing for His Church. When the Rapture is placed at any other point in time, the imminence of the Lords appearing is destroyed because other prophetic events must happen first.
For example, if the Rapture is going to occur in mid-Tribulation, then why should I live looking for the Lords appearing at any moment? I would be looking instead for an Israeli peace treaty, the rebuilding of the Temple, and the revelation of the Antichrist. Then and only then could the Lord appear.
Focus
This raises the issue of what we are to be looking for. Nowhere are believers told to watch for the appearance of the Antichrist. On the contrary, we are told to watch for Jesus Christ. In Titus 2:13 Paul says we are to live looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus. Likewise, Peter urges us to fix our hope completely on the grace to be brought to us at the revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 1:13). John completes the apostolic chorus by similarly urging us to fix our hope on Him at His appearing (1 John 3:2-3).
Only Matthew speaks of watching for the Antichrist (Matt. 24:15), but he is speaking to the Jews living in Israel in the middle of the Tribulation when the Antichrist desecrates the rebuilt Temple.
Wrath
Another argument in behalf of a pre-Tribulation Rapture has to do with the promises of God to protect the Church from His wrath. As has already been demonstrated, the book of Revelation shows that the wrath of God will be poured out during the entire period of the Tribulation.
The Word promises over and over that the Church will be delivered from Gods wrath. Romans 5:9 says that we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him [Jesus]. 1 Thessalonians 1:10 states that we are waiting for His Son from heaven . . . who will deliver us from the wrath to come. The promise is repeated in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 - God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Deliverance
Some argue that God could supernaturally protect the Church during the Tribulation. Yes, He could. In fact, He promises to do just that for the 144,000 Jews who will be sealed as bond-servants at the beginning of the Tribulation (Rev. 7:1-8).
But Gods promise to the Church during the Tribulation is not one of protection but one of deliverance. Jesus said we would escape the horrors of the Tribulation (Luke 21:36). Paul says Jesus is coming to deliver us from Gods wrath (1 Thess. 1:10).
Symbolism
There are several prophetic types that seem to affirm the concept of deliverance from Tribulation. Take Enoch for example. He was a prophet to the Gentiles who was raptured out of the world before God poured out His wrath in the great flood of Noahs time. Enoch appears to be a type of the Gentile Church that will be taken out of the world before God pours out His wrath again. If so, then Noah and his family are a type of the Jewish remnant that will be protected through the Tribulation.
Another Old Testament symbolic type which points toward a pre-Tribulation Rapture is the experience of Lot and his family. They were delivered out of Sodom and Gomorrah before those cities were destroyed.
The Apostle Peter alludes to both of these examples in his second epistle. He states that if God spared Noah and Lot, then He surely knows how to rescue the godly from trial and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment (2 Peter 4-9).
Another beautiful prophetic type is to be found in the Jewish wedding traditions of Jesuss time. After the betrothal, the groom would return to his fathers house to prepare a wedding chamber for his bride. He would return for his bride at an unexpected moment, so the bride had to be ready constantly. When he returned, he would take his bride back to his fathers house to the chamber he had prepared. He and his bride would then be sealed in the chamber for seven days. When they emerged, a great wedding feast would be celebrated.
Likewise, Jesus has returned to Heaven to prepare a place for His bride, the Church. When He returns for His bride, He will take her to His Fathers heavenly home. There He will remain with His bride for seven years (the duration of the Tribulation). The period will end with the marriage supper of the Lamb described in Revelation 19. Thus the seven days in the wedding chamber point prophetically to the seven years that Jesus and His bride will remain in Heaven during the Tribulation.
Revelation
Speaking of Revelation, the structure of that book also implies a pre-Tribulation Rapture in a symbolic sense. The first three chapters focus on the Church. Chapter 4 begins with the door of Heaven opening and John being raptured from the isle of Patmos to the throne of God in Heaven. The Church is not mentioned thereafter until Revelation 19:7-9 when it is portrayed as the bride of Christ in Heaven with Jesus celebrating the marriage supper of the Lamb. At Revelation 19:11 the door of Heaven opens again, and Jesus emerges riding a white horse on His way to earth, followed by His Church (Rev. 19:14).
The rapture of the Apostle John in Revelation 4 appears to be a symbolic type of the Rapture of the Church. Note that it is initiated by the cry of a voice that sounds like the blowing of a trumpet (Rev. 4:1). Since the Tribulation does not begin until Revelation 6, the rapture of John in Revelation 4 appears to be a symbolic type that points to a pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church.
Some counter this argument by pointing out that although the Church is not mentioned in Revelation during that books description of the Tribulation, there is constant mention of saints (for example, Rev. 13:7). But that term is not used in the Bible exclusively to refer to members of the Church. Daniel uses it to refer to Old Testament believers who lived long before the Church was established (Dan. 7:18). The saints referred to in the book of Revelation are most likely those people who will be saved during the Tribulation, after the Church has been taken out of the world.
Pauls Assurance
An interesting argument in behalf of the pre-Tribulation timing of the Rapture can be found in 2 Thessalonians. The church at Thessalonica was in a turmoil because someone had written them a letter under Pauls name stating that they had missed the gathering to the Lord and were, in fact, living in the day of the Lord (2 Thess. 2:1-2).
Paul attempted to calm them down by reminding them of his teaching that the day of the Lord would not come until after the Antichrist is revealed. He then stated that the Antichrist would not be revealed until a restraining force is taken out of the way (2 Thess. 2:3-7).
There has been much speculation as to the identify of this restraining force that Paul refers to. Some have identified it as the Holy Spirit. But it cannot be the Holy Spirit because there will be people saved during the Tribulation, and no one can be saved apart from the testimony of the Spirit (John 16:8-11 and 1 John 5:7).
Others have identified the restrainer as human government. It is true that government was ordained by God to restrain evil (Romans 13:1-4). But the governments of the world are in rebellion against God and His Son (Psalm 2), and they are therefore a contributor to the evil that characterizes the world. Furthermore, the Tribulation will not be characterized by a lack of government. Rather, it will feature the first true worldwide government (Rev. 13:7).
In my opinion that leaves only one other candidate for Pauls restrainer - and that is the Church. It is the Church that serves as the primary restrainer of evil in the world today as it proclaims the Gospel and stands for righteousness. When the Church fails in this mission, evil multiplies, as Paul graphically points out in 2 Timothy 3:1-5. Paul says that society in the end times will be characterized by chaos and despair because men will hold to a form of religion but will deny its power. When the Church is removed from the world, all hell will literally break loose.
Escapism?
The pre-Tribulation concept of the Rapture has often been condemned as escapism. I think this criticism is unjustified. The Bible itself says that Christians are to comfort one another with the thought of the Rapture (1 Thess. 4:18). Is it a comfort to think of the Rapture occurring at the end of the worlds worst period of war instead of at the beginning?
Regardless of when the Rapture actually occurs, we need to keep in mind that the Bible teaches that societal conditions are going to grow increasingly worse the closer we get to the Lords return. That means Christians will suffer tribulation whether or not they go into the Great Tribulation. And that means all of us had better be preparing ourselves for unprecedented suffering and spiritual warfare.
If you are a Christian, you can do that on a daily basis by putting on the full armor of God (Eph. 6:13), praying at all times in the Spirit that you will be able to stand firm against the attacks of Satan (Eph. 6:14-18).
If you are not a Christian, your only hope is to reach out in faith and receive the free gift of Gods salvation which He has provided through His Son, Jesus (John 3:16).
To assert that God is ambiguous, serves to weaken your argument. If, indeed, Scripture is ambiguous, then we need some cryteria to determine which subjects are ambiguous and which are not. Such cryteria should not be ambiguous.
I John 2:27
The word is "indulgence." FYI.
In fact as posted on another thread here, the Nicene Creed, something the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic Church has some contentions about, was passed by a majority vote as early as 350+AD against the wishes of the Eastern Orthodox.
You need to re-read your history. Both East and West approved of the Nicene Creed, even the Nicene-Constantinoplian edition. It is only later that the Filioque becomes an issue.
SD
This is about the best response one can expect when the dispensational raw assertions are challenged.
"Oh look, there's a place in the middle east called 'Israel'. This must be some fulfillment of prophecy since the Bible also speak of a place called 'Israel'." How silly. But, where is the priesthood? Where is the temple? Where is the division of the land by tribes? Where are the tribes and the elders for that matter? And who are these secular/atheist/reform/conservative/orthodox Jews that populate the land? Where is the religion of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Jesus, and Paul in this modern state?
And when the "prophecies" don't quite work out according to plan; revise, revise revise. Get another book out, quick. Remember Edgar Whisenant and his rapture predictions, all based on modern "Israel" of course? Remember Hal Lindsey's Terminal Generation? It's now classified as a "Used, Rare, Out-of-Print, Hard-to-Find Book". Or how 'bout John Walvoord's Armageddon, Oil, and the Middle East Crisis: What the Bible Says About the Future of the Middle East and the End of Western Civilization? Well, what did the Bible say, John? If you're still curious you can pick up John's book on amazon.com for 1 penny!!
We saw the same mumbo-jumbo from dispensational quarters when Saddam Hussein was in power making noises about "Babylon". The prophecy preachers were stepping on each other to get yet another book out explaining how "Bible prophecy" was being fulfilled even as the world watched.
The NT makes it clear that all the promises to Abraham were fulfilled in Jesus Christ. "Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ." They were not made to "seeds" of Abraham, that is "national Israel" or "Jews". They were made to the true "Seed". In Christ we find the fulfillment of the kingdom promises.
And we know that ultimately Abraham was not looking for a physical inheritence in the middle east:
By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. ... But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them. (Heb. 11)
People are so gullible. But "It's obvious" is not a good enough answer.
From the article below:
"No clear record exists of the process by which the word Filioque was inserted into the Creed of 381 in the Christian West before the sixth century."
You can find the history of the Nicene Creed at Free Republic.
Is balderdash. The Nicene Creed was approved by the Entire Church in 325.
But, if you want to continue claiming the Orthodox objected to the Nicene Creed, and it was passed over their objections, please do. It only makes you look foolish.
SD
While the Nicene Creed was approved by the entire church in 325 divisions developed when the filoque was added for unknown reasons in 38+AD and the Orthodox withdrew their support. I refer you to the article reference I posted in #73 published by the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation group.
If I appear "foolish" at least I'll have company of the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation group since we both must be in error.
My only conclusion is that God was deliberately ambiguous.
Certainly some ambiguity would be highly likely given the human transcribers.
However, God could have overridden that were it a priority for Him.
And, there's no way The Bible Codes would work at all unless God had very precise control over not only the original documents but the most widely held copies used today.
Ambiguity in a list of areas of Scripture would require what God created man for; what Christ died to restore and what Holy Spirit came to facilitate anyway:
1) INTENSE, INTIMATE FELLOWSHIP BETWEEN GOD AND MAN
2) WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF THAT GROWING INTIMACY, INCREASING KNOWLEDGE AND CONFORMING TO THE WISDOM, PURPOSES AND WILL OF GOD.
3) THE DIALOGUE REQUIRED FOR THE ABOVE TWO.
It takes spirituality out of the rote, chronically and liberally flawed--human-forced KEEPING THE LETTER OF THE LAW and all the deadliness Christ noted that entailed. And it transforms authentic spirituality into a wonderous, spontaneous, creative, lively, LIFE BREATHED DANCE WITH ALMIGHTY GOD.
Further, there are a list of areas which, as Apostle Paul noted--are right for you but not for me; right for me but not for you; right for both of us but not others. The dialogue and dance alone--facilitated by Holy Spirit--the RELATIONSHIP OF INTIMACY WITH GOD ALONE affords any of us proper navigation of all such choices. The letter of the law will not do it. That will only bring death.
LIFE COMES, IN PROCESS, ONLY FROM THE DANCE . . . WITH HOLY SPIRIT BOTH THE ORCHESTRA LEADER AND THE MUSIC.
Great historical insights.
THANKS MUCH.
I would note again . . . it is HUMAN NATURE to pollute, corrupt, twist and mangle EVERY group that exists very long at all--I say about a year and a half--into a more machine like authoritarian
WE ARE RIGHT AND EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG
sort of authoritarian, proud, exclusive . . . force, organization. I have NEVER observed anything else in 57 years of living. SOME are much worse and some are much better about such issues. But all show serious evidence of such tendencies.
Pretending that is not true is either blind ignorance or terminal idiocy, imho.
WHEN CHRIST CAME, HE SLICED STRAIGHT ACROSS ALL SUCH ISSUES. He didn't cut on any predictable fault lines but cut across all the sensibilities and particularly those of the RELIGIOUS, FOSSILIZED, PHARISAICAL, AUTHORITARIAN, POLITICAL, EXCLUSIVE ETC. ORDER OF THE DAY.
IF ONE WERE TO DRAW UP A LIST OF THE FEATURES CHRIST RAILED AT, AND A LIST OF THE CHARACTERISTICS OF
But it cannot be the Holy Spirit because there will be people saved during the Tribulation, and no one can be saved apart from the testimony of the Spirit (John 16:8-11 and 1 John 5:7). ...
In my opinion that leaves only one other candidate for Pauls restrainer - and that is the Church.
Dispensationalism teaches that "the Church" is removed during the future 7-year great tribulation. But then they go on to talk about all these converts to Christ during the tribulation. But what is a person who converts to Christ a member of? You guessed it, the Church. All Christians (followers of Christ) are members of Christ's body, the Church.
So they have to invent a new category with new terminology calling them "tribulation saints". Now, according to the Bible a saint is a saint is a saint. Unless you have Roman Catholic tendencies there is no difference between a "tribulation saint" and a non-tribulation saint. They are all part of Christ's church, His chosen people, His "holy nation", His "royal priesthood".
This is not "rightly dividing the Word of God". This is dispensational chopped liver, totally unrecognizable from the original.
EXCELLENT POINT ABOUT CONSENSUS.
I think consensus in spiritual groups is a good reality check.
However, I've seen groups operate in consensus AND
STILL
GO OFF THE DEEP END.
But it at least seems to retard the tendency and decrease the distance of the drop off the cliff.
I wish all such weren't true--but God must have involved His wisdom in leaving things this way. I believe it has to do with preserving a robust amount of
FREE WILL for each individual
AND,
as I've mentioned, insuring that each individual is compelled out of Love for God and God's requirements--to engage in a moment by moment dialogue and Heavenly Dance with God.
I would say doctrine outside the word of God, there is a lot of that
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