Posted on 03/30/2004 5:22:47 PM PST by yonif
No, I have an issue with you talking about others who "idolize those icons." I do take such baseless implications against my faith personally.
As to the issue with God, He's already spoken about "bearing false witness." Words you should heed before commenting on your perceptions of the behaviors of other Christians.
Are you stating as a fact that this must apply to all persons at all times?
And I agree with you! Just as I sometimes think the RC leans toward papal worship. LOL. You are doing a very good job of trying not to offend. I commend you for it.
I suppose you are correct in this, we all lean toward idolatry as weak humans. I sometimes worry that I am leaning toward it in things to do with life in general, such as money, my garden, etc.
What I'm stating is that we as humans are fallible and capable of the same sins of the Pharisees in the time of Christ.
I think for us these things are not immaterial, though. For that matter few protestants would consider Scripture to be immaterial, nor would RC consider the pope to be.
What you might mean to say is that we overemphasize or begin to place more importance on the "guides" than on God?
A fascinating point. What we would consider a weakness of objectivism, which we mostly shun in the EO church.
Many EO theologians believe that objectivism is the weak branch which brings down western Christianity.
You make the point I was trying to make. Many take the idea of idolatry too literally. One need not have a statue or icon in order to be guilty of idolotry. Anything, any thing, that becomes more important for a person than God is a form of idolatry.
Many like to point to icons or statues and accuse others of idolatry, while overlooking the all-too-real sense of idolatry as any object of attention and worship which is not God.
SD
Thanks for that. *wipes the sweat off my brow* Whew - this is one tough forum. I don't come in the religion section often. ;-)
I suppose you are correct in this, we all lean toward idolatry as weak humans. I sometimes worry that I am leaning toward it in things to do with life in general, such as money, my garden, etc.
That's a good illustration of the magnitude of the levels at which our tendancy to commit idolatry can operate. I have to be cautious about my computer-time as it is something I truly enjoy doing. Games, forums, etc. I guess the reason this particular thread caught my eye was the more purely religious aspect of it. I am a devout Christian and do things by tradition as well. In my own home with my wife and children I labor to keep our traditions from becoming more than they need to be and instead focus upon the present reality of God. One thing I find entirely attractive about Eastern Orthodox beliefs is it's ability to embrace the 'incomprehensible'. I'm not ready to convert mind you. ;-)
I am with you on that SD. I think that's ultimately what I'm saying - but I purposefully didn't include the more common aspects of life. I think all flavors of Christianity adheres to such a notion but at the same time are reluctant to apply such a standard to their religious traditions. No one likes to acknowledge gold calves in their midst. :-)
But I think beyond that they support and sustain us through times of weak belief, which I think we all have too, at times.
So now we are talking about rituals, perhaps, and their place in worship.
In the EO church, as you can imagine, this topic has been widely discussed and debated. :-)
I recall often a writing by Daniel Clendenin, an evangelical Protestant, I believe. He has extensively studied our faith and written about it, primarily in very positive ways. During his studies he met and talked with an Orthodox clergy member who admitted to a time period of loss of faith, which was transient. Because he was a priest, he was required to "go through the motions" at church, in spite of his personal crisis. The priest claimed that it was exactly this requirement of having to serve our liturgy which then returned him to his faith.
In the EO church it is often said that the "externals" as we call them, protray our inner spiritual life. So you will see, for example, a discussion on Putin ( who is Orthodox) in which Russian clergy will say that his behavior in church is very natural and spontaneous, and by this they mean to say that he is genuinely a believer.
I have discussed this at church regarding my teen agers, who now often are too self-conscious to get down on the floor and do prostrations in front of everyone. My feeling is that they need to do this anyway, because it not only represents their feelings of unworthiness in front of God, but because it assists these feelings to take shape and be in the forefront of life.
I'm a he. :-) I should make that clear in my profile I guess.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. But I'm being more imperative than that. The tendency toward idolatry is higher risk. I use the nation of israel as my object lesson. In many ways the experience of God's chosen people can serve as an arch-type of the Christian experience. One moment their focused on God the next their in idolatry and often times in captivity. Invariably God is faithful to intervene but he certainly allows us free will to do as we please.
How very true. Many disdain ritual because it can be empty, but it is also expressive and catechetical. The body and the soul can express things the mind may be having trouble with.
Or, pardon the Latin, lex orandi, lex credendi
SD
lol - I had to look that one up. Yes - it appears you are! Be sure and keep some Advil on hand. ;-)
Ritual is a worthy and essential part of worship, but we must strive to use it to express the truths of our faith.
Where I am going out on a limb is to say that ritual without the belief of the truth behind it, can be helpful in cementing/teaching the belief of that truth.
Otoh, we all do this with our children, perhaps.
You can even see it in daily life. At our house, people who come over go home with a dozen fresh eggs. My children know this and routinely get the eggs for the visitors as they leave. It has become a ritual for us, and it expresses a "truth", that of thanking people or letting them know we are glad they came.
I see little difference between this kind of thing and the rituals we use at church to express humility before God, for example. No one would argue that our external behavior is the way most people learn about us.
Icons are an expression of the truth of the Incarnation. By coming to earth and taking on the form of matter, God showed us that matter can be a form through which we can reach Him.
Scripture is a form of matter that is sacred but reveals God to you. Icons and Scripture are such for us.
Just as Christ took on human form to reveal God to us.
If you can go see the Passion and find that it reveals God to you, I don't see how you can have an issue with icons.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.