The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

AP ^ | 3/24/01

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Correct, Alex. I'm a staunch KJV-only post-mil. I believe God's will is always accomplished, and the church will fulfill her purpose.

It's a hopeful, positive, energetic outlook that bids Christians to be bold and confident.

[ksen]

Such free will as we have is granted by God to accomplish His purposes.

Welcome aboard the good ship Calvin, matey! ;^)

[jude24]

Well, I'll be upfront: last time I saw someone try to present "the other side of Calvinism," I walked away unimpressed. Dave Hunt's What Love is This did not reflect AT ALL what Calvinists actually believe, but twisted it in the hopes of scoring points against a system that Hunt has embarked on a jihad against. Now, I haven't read Vance, but I'm guessing the same thing will happen: anti-Calvinists will be hardened in their hatred of Calvinism, and Calvinists will see their views as being misrepresented. Sorry, I've got better things to do than bang my head against the wall.

The arguments about supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism, total depravity and total inability reprobation and peterition, synergism and monergism, free will and free agency, common grace and special grace, general calling and effectual calling.....are all immaterial.

I agree, except about monergism and synergism. That's what it's all about: miss that, and you miss everything. \

Thus, the basic error of Calvinism is confounding election and predestination with salvation, which they never are in the Bible but only in the philosophical speculations....of calvinism."

Now, that's just so much crap. I know the typical anti-calvinist line is that "oh, election is to service, not to salvation." Well, try reading 2The 2:10 without theological blinders on! "God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth."

[RnMomof7]

If it was me my thought would be "Jesus is here - follow Him." But it wouldn't be some hypnosis, mind control, or puppetry. "Drop what they were doing and immediately follow Him" does not imply lack of free will.

You need to understand that Calvinists believe we all have a will to choose , but unregenerate man will never choose to follow Christ ,Gods grace must precede the choice to follow him.

[RnMomof7]

See we are not so strange after all

[IMRight]

But Calvinists don't call anyone "schmuck" like I was called last week.

Give it a rest, ok Doc?

If the guy apologized and you accepted the apology it's unchristian of you to keep bringing it back up time and time again.

Not everyone realizes (as you should know) that the word has some offensive roots (BTW it has some perfectly reasonable non-vulgar uses as well). "Dork" has a very similar origin but people don't consider it beyond the pale.

The Calvinists here haven't shown some group aversion to inappropriate language sufficient for you to think you're on a high horse. It's really My Little PonyTM. I believe you used "pathetic" the same day - which plenty of people can be offended by without having Jewish relatives to translate from the English.

[Quester]

Why can you not "choose" to lose" the Holy Spirit? You do have free will.

We don't have that much free will.

Psalm 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

[CindyDawg]

I tried to relate this yesterday (?) with the bond servant story. God chooses to offer this gift to ALL his children. Some accept, some don't. Does he know what we are going to choose? Of course, if he wants to. After we choose to accept Christ it's for keeps though. I'll even bend as far as agreeing with yall that this "free will" issue over at this point. He shows that he still allow us the free will to "back slide" at xs though but will eventually check us and pull us back don't you think?

[jude24]

In other words, even our will is fallen and must be fixed in order for us to be able to accept the freely offered gift of salvation.

(As an aside to the GRPL: has any of you found that, if you drop the 5 points, and just discuss monergistic regeneration, you get a lot further? I found that, as soon as I dropped the title "Calvinism" and ignored the 5 points, but focused on how "it's all God from start to finish," I was able to elicit agreement from an hardened anti-Calvinist that what I believed was Biblical after all.)

[Quester]

Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. - John 1:48

Yes ... I'm sure Jesus knew Nathaneal before he came to him ... as He knew everyone (pre-disciple or not) before they came to Him.

I agree that Jesus/God is never surprised.

[IMRight]

There is no question that God's Grace will precede the choice to follow Him. As a creature (and that's all we are apart from Him) man does not have the ability to say "yes" to God. That doesn't force the situation though. Your usage of "will" is "unusual". Those who are not regenerated will not chose Him, those who are will.

That's not free will.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

LOL like you had something else to do?

Its good to see the swarm in action and what they believe, this thread has for the most part stayed away from the tulip debate, what else is left? And you gotta admit they are fun to watch. :)

I ain't scared are you? :)

BigMack

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I'm a staunch KJV-only

If the rest of the swarm knew where you live they would stone you. :)

BigMack

[RnMomof7]

We don't have that much free will. Psalm 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

I do not see that scripture applicable to the question. That addresses God's omnipresence which is true for the saved and unsaved . One can not escape even in Hell (which sure would indicate an unsaved man )

Your position is we have enough free will to force God to act , but not enough to walk away?? In case one we have an unregenerate man that can force God to act according to his will and a regenerate man that can not do as he chooses.

It would seem it takes a strong will to make God act. It should be just as strong to walk away .Does God want you to be a puppet, being where you do not want to be?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

(As an aside to the GRPL: has any of you found that, if you drop the 5 points, and just discuss monergistic regeneration, you get a lot further? I found that, as soon as I dropped the title "Calvinism" and ignored the 5 points, but focused on how "it's all God from start to finish," I was able to elicit agreement from an hardened anti-Calvinist that what I believed was Biblical after all.)

Thats called closet tulip, and underhanded, I was a member of a church that the closet tulip folks tried to take over using this method and they tore the church apart.

BigMack

[Quester]

Such free will as we have is granted by God to accomplish His purposes.

Welcome aboard the good ship Calvin, matey! ;^)

I believe that we still may have an issue ... with where God draws the line (defining what He grants us the power to choose vs. where we have no power to choose).

[IMRight]

I ain't scared are you? :)

They aren't the most imposing opponents... no.

Mail for you Mack.

[CindyDawg]

Its good to see the swarm in action and what they believe, this thread has for the most part stayed away from the tulip debate, what else is left? And you gotta admit they are fun to watch. :)

Well some of them scare me:') How many are there anyway? I think we are being out numbered. lol

[jude24]

I'm not interested in splitting churches. Nor do I see what's underhanded in not applying a label to myself.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

I ain't scared are you? :)

Of them? You gotta be kidding? Actually I find the topic a huge bore. But what the heck. If it makes them feel important I'm happy. :-)