GRPL HISTORY THREAD: "The Place of the Printing Press in the Reformation"

unpublished doctoral paper | drstevej

[SoothingDave]

I guess Ephesians 2:8-10 isn't one of them.

Nope. But they included John 6, so it's a wash.

SD

[drstevej]

*** I don't believe there is such a thing as a "perfect translation."***

We agree.

*** Luckily, the standard to be met is not perfection but rather the much lower standard of Nihil Obstat -- nothing obstructs.***

Where does the KJV obstruct? I think the Vulgate obstructs in substituting pennance for repentance, but where is the King Jimmy out to lunch?

[drstevej]

***Public disputation of issues was not new to the church. The history of the church prior to the Reformation is largely the history of disputations. Printing, therefore, did not introduce disputation but it did significantly change the method and results of disputation.

Printing extended the circle of disputational participation far beyond those present, allowing others to be "vicarious participants." Much of the literature of the period was intended for extended audiences and for polemical purposes rather than for libraries of scholars. Preserved Smith observes, "The reading public became the supreme court before whom, from this time, all cases must be argued."

The "fixity of type," a consequence of the press, further affected debate. Scholars could now cite specifically both current and earlier literature by title and page. Also, once disputation was printed, reversal of opinion was more difficult. Therefore, dissent became more indelible; edicts and pronouncements became more available and irrevocable. Excommunication, for example, could not be impulsively pronounced and then swept under the carpet.

Widely available printed theological positions intensified the emphasis on individuals. The terms Calvinist, Lutheran and Mennonite reflect the personal polarity of the era. Biographies and memoirs, while comparatively rare in the fifteenth century, became common in the sixteenth, especially in the later half. Anonymity declined, partisan groups (sects and denominations) flourished.***

Thought this was an interesting section in light of the religion forum issues. Similar issues, new technology.

[Ephesians210]

Re: "I guess Ephesians 2:8-10 isn't one of them."

Nope.

Thanks for honestly admitting a passage that states salvation is totally the work of God and man's works play no part whatsoever, is left out as not being truth by the RCC.

[SoothingDave]

Learn how to take a joke. :-)

SD

[SoothingDave]

Where does the KJV obstruct? I think the Vulgate obstructs in substituting pennance for repentance, but where is the King Jimmy out to lunch?

I'm no expert on the subject. I am only aware of a few places where there are disagreements between the KJV and others.

SD

[drstevej]

That's cool.

[SoothingDave]

Preserved Smith observes,

Is "Preserved Smith" the guy's name?

SD

[Claud]

Very interesting and balanced piece, drstevej. Thanks for posting.

First of all--I appreciate the magnanimity to admit to understanding Ignatius of Loyola's position when it comes to communication today. I think we all are starting to recognize that *no* censorship opens some pretty ugly doors.

I did find this quote a good springboard for something I've been wondering:

Protestants believe God sovereignly provided not only the men but also the medium for starting the Reformation. This congruence of men and medium is noted by Cole, The development of Luther's theology coincided exactly with the period in which European culture moved from the age of manuscripts to the era of printed books.

Perhaps you could help me understand the Reformed position on this, but it almost seems to be saying that Protestantism depended on the printing press to work. Didn't the post-Apostolic Church have the same problem that the Middle Ages Church did--illiterates and expensive books? What was the poor believer to do between the death of St. John and the 1520s?

[Claud]

I believe when John Henry Newman became Catholic, he still continued to use the KJV. Or I may have confused him with someone else--regardless, I do know converts who continue to use it.

[Ephesians210]

Re: Learn how to take a joke. :-)

SD

U2...LOL

[Dr. Eckleburg]

~RM: "...significantly change..."~


An interesting article by FOF James Dobson, with a link to the A&E Biography "Top 100 Influential People of the Past 1,000 Years" --


http://www.family.org/docstudy/newsletters/a0008811.html


Note that Walt Disney and Princess Diana beat out John Calvin and Pope John Paul II.

[Ephesians210]

Re: I think the Vulgate obstructs in substituting pennance for repentance, but where is the King Jimmy out to lunch?

I also think the Vulgate obstructs in it's rendering of Genesis 3:15:

15And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel."
(NKJV)

The Vulgate renders the 4th line, "She shall bruise your head", as opposed to the correct rendering, "He shall bruise your head", a mistake that has been used to justify the development of Mariology in the RCC.

It appears Mel Gibson prefers the KJV rendering, in "The Passion", Jesus stomps the head of a serpent in the Garden of Gethsemane, not Mary.

[SoothingDave]

Note that Walt Disney and Princess Diana beat out John Calvin and Pope John Paul II.

And Margaret Sanger! To be honest, though I remember where I was when I found out Diana was dead. Can't say the same for Calvin. LOL

And why is President Reagan's Interior Secretary number 25?

SD

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I'm sure DrSteve has his own answer to this. My opinion is that, like Steve's paper stipulated, for the 1,200 years prior to the Reformation the words and writings of the Apostles became more and more entrenched in a superfluous hierarchy of human complications surrounding the established church.

When the Bible became available for the masses to read themselves, the Holy Spirit spoke the Word of God to the individual more clearly than the overly-adorned church.

It was no coincidence that as Calvin wrote his Commentaries on the Scriptures, he became more convinced than ever of Rome's error and God's will.

I do remember a time when Catholics were forbidden to read the Bible on their own. Many now deny this, but that's how I remember it.

It's similar to Mel Gibson's church being called "radical," when his beliefs were 100% the Catholic norm (and held by every Catholic friend I had) until the 60's. Some facts just get lost down the memory hole.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

...Reagan's Interior Secretary (James Watt)...

LOL. I guess they liked his "hot air."

We shouldn't forget A&E and Biography are part-owned by Disney.

The strangest one, IMO, is #94 -- Patient Zero. Nothing like taking discredited speculation and cementing it as fact.

[SoothingDave]

Patient Zero? I thought that was one of Frank Zappa's kids.

SD

[Dr. Eckleburg]

LOL. (I miss Zappa. He was an interesting guy.)

[drstevej]

YEP, Henry Preserved Smith (b. 1834) Old Testament professor of Lane Seminary. Tried and convicted of heresy by the Cincinnati presbytery in 1892 for his higher critical views of the Old Testament.

[drstevej]

***I do know converts who continue to use it.***

I am sure they do. I am not sure about Cardinal Newman, but if the KJV does not have the imprimatur I am surprised he would.