The Pelagian Captivity of the Church

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals ^ | R. C. Sproul

[drstevej]

***Sorry, John says you're wrong.
John 1:13 -- Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.***

No fair quoting proof texts, it makes Vern irritable. Tell him, Vern. You gave me quite a lecture about proof texts. OP will enjoy it. Pop some popcorn OP, you'll love this one...

[connectthedots]

Faith is wholly a Gift from God.

Are you saying that man cannot exercise faith unless he is a Christian?

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

So is having sexual relations w2ith one's spouse considered a 'work'?

Well, Believers who engage their spouses in sexual intercourse are obeying the first positive commandment in the Bible ("go forth and multiply"), so I'd call that a Good Work. And if a Good Work, then a "work", yes.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Are you saying that man cannot exercise faith unless he is a Christian?

Nope. I am saying that unless a Man is Regenerated, he has no Faith within himself to exercise unto Repentance and Adoption into the Family of God. Regeneration creates Faith in those who were formerly Spiritually-Dead.

Once a Man is Regenerated, he then does Repent and is Adopted (pretty much all in the same instantaneous progression of mental events).

[drstevej]

"Is sex dirty? Only if it's done right." ~ Woody Allen

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

;-) Bad Amyrauldian. Bad.

[Vernon]

Once you accept the express teaching of John 1:13 -- that Man's Will is not a participant to the Action of the man's Spiritual Regeneration -- that pretty much settles the matter.

Good grief, I fell of the turnip truck, but it wasn't yesterday.

Please STOP PROOF TEXTING and ignoring the context. Read the verses immediately preceeding verse 13, and it totally destroys your argument. Read carefully:

"11. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13.Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The "receiving" precedes/goes before anything that follows! Simple enough when you take the scripture in it's context.

[CCWoody]

***So, when God permits Murder, is His Will to grant such Permission -- imperfect?***

ROTFL!

That's OK! Marlowe tried to embarrass us Calvinists earlier by leveling this accusation against us:

***If, in fact, God did not approve of the actions of Hitler, then how is it that Hitler was able to do the things he did?*** ~ P-Marlowe

And, after picking myself up off the floor from laughing so hard that the Arminian has, ONCE again, hung himself with his own tongue, I asked him to impeach his own theology with that accusation.

By leveling that accusation against us Calvinist, he just shot his own theology in the head and accused himself of the very crime with which he wants to charge us Calvinists.

Woody.

[connectthedots]

The marriage bed is undefiled.

[drstevej]

Hang on vern, the popcorn is still a poppin'. OP, please be gentle with Vern.

[Vernon]

Hey, no need to be gentle, just face facts and stop the broken record...over, and over, and over, and over, and over...ad infinitum, ad nauseam, and if that doesn't work, throw in a little ridicule, a little condescension, etc.

[drstevej]

Pot. Kettle. Black

[Vernon]

if that doesn't work, throw in a little ridicule, a little condescension, etc.

[Vernon]

Still waiting on which version/translation/paraphrase you consider inspired inerrantly since there are no extant documents.

[Frumanchu]

So is having sexual relations w2ith one's spouse considered a 'work'?

Must.....not.....get.....suspended........

[Vernon]

Talking to myself, this entire thread about the Pelagian Heresy of the Church is as bogus an argument as I have ever heard. Very few, if any, are actually Pelagian. More of the "straw man" syndrome. Later.

[CCWoody]

***;-) Bad Amyrauldian. Bad.***

That's OK, you should have seen what I yanked before posting.

Woody.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, . ~~ The "receiving" precedes/goes before anything that follows! Simple enough when you take the scripture in it's context.

Simple enough, indeed.

Here's some advice on "taking Scripture in context".

• 1.) Learn to read English.
• 2.) Look up the Definition of a Colon in English punctuation.
  The colon announces that the reader is about to get an explanation, examples, clarification.
• 3.) Realize that the punctuation arrangements of the King James are very precise. The translators did not throw the English verses together haphazardly.
• 4.) Notice the colon between Verses 12 and 13.
• 5.) Realize that Verse 13 gives explanation, examples, clarification to Verse 12.

• 6.) CONCLUDE that in Verse 13, John explains and clarifies that "those who receive Him" in Verse 12 are precisely those who have been Spiritually-Regenerated by God's Will, not their own.

The bottom line being that, even if we establish "Believing God" in verse 12 as the necessity for Adoption into God's Family (and this is certainly true), Verse 13 goes on to tell us that the existence of this Belief in the Man CANNOT EVER be ascribed to Man's Will, and MUST ALWAYS be ascribed to God's Will alone.

SO, according to Verse 13 -- You can define "Belief in God" any way you like, as long as it is "NOT of the will of the flesh, NOR of the will of man, but of God".

It's bad enough that you must be taught Remedial Theology, but having to also teach you Remedial English is most troubling indeed.

[Frumanchu]

"11. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13.Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The "receiving" precedes/goes before anything that follows! Simple enough when you take the scripture in it's context.

Sorry, Vern. Gonna have a hard time proving that those who received Him did not do so according to prior appointment (see Acts 13:48).

Yes, they received Him...after being born of God. (John 3:3)

[drstevej]

Better reword that one, Woodrow....