Why Does God Allow Evil? - Email from a Skeptic

Koinonea House Online ^ | Dr Mark Eastman

[xzins]

That was the New American Standard.

[Freemeorkillme]

Yes. Thanks. right on.

Verse 6 in its entirety:

"He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it." NIV student bible.

All things do, indeed, serve Him!

FMOKM

[xzins]

Galatians 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

[Alamo-Girl]

Indeed, Job 28 is a very interesting chapter to me also! IMHO, the whole book of Job is wonderfully instructive to the topic at hand.

My two cents…

Job began his trial with a humble and loving heart, he did not accuse God:

Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped, And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD. In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly. – Job 1:20-22

But in the subsequent chapters, Job’s heart seems to change. Rather than humble submission to God’s will, he seems to be focused on his own suffering and righteousness. Chapter 28 has a different style though, in that Job waxes philosophic.

Whence then cometh wisdom? and where [is] the place of understanding? Seeing it is hid from the eyes of all living, and kept close from the fowls of the air. Destruction and death say, We have heard the fame thereof with our ears.

God understandeth the way thereof, and he knoweth the place thereof. For he looketh to the ends of the earth, [and] seeth under the whole heaven; To make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure. When he made a decree for the rain, and a way for the lightning of the thunder:

Then did he see it, and declare it; he prepared it, yea, and searched it out. And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that [is] wisdom; and to depart from evil [is] understanding.

By chapter 32, young Elihu finally had “enough” with Job and his other friends; Elihu was particularly upset with Job because he was trying to justify himself.

So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he [was] righteous in his own eyes. Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God. Also against his three friends was his wrath kindled, because they had found no answer, and [yet] had condemned Job. Now Elihu had waited till Job had spoken, because they [were] elder than he. – chapter 32:1-5

Talk about “out of the mouth of babes”... Elihu ended with his long statement by pointing directly to the problem – and the issue we are discussing (emphasis mine):

[Touching] the Almighty, we cannot find him out: [he is] excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: he will not afflict. Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any [that are] wise of heart. - Job 37:23-24

Immediately after that, God addressed Job directly and brought him to his knees, beginning in chapter 38 with this:

Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who [is] this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Back in chapter 28 Job had asserted, saying that he was repeating what God had Himself said, that the fear of the Lord is wisdom and departing from evil is understanding. But God said that Job had words without knowledge and did not have understanding. After the Lord spoke to him, Job reacted by saying:

Then Job answered the LORD, and said, I know that thou canst do every [thing], and [that] no thought can be withholden from thee. Who [is] he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor [myself], and repent in dust and ashes. – Job 42:1-6

IOW, wisdom and understanding are gifts of God. 1 Corinthians 2:

And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your reply and for your insights on Justin Martyr and Plato!

I agree with you that Plato got as far as he could humanly go before the Incarnation! Truly, I believe that he was gifted by God for that very purpose, to prepare the Greek-speaking world to be ready to receive and spread the Gospel.

Justin Martyr's writings seem to support this view, as he perceived references to the Cross and to Moses in Plato's work.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your reply!

or succintly put, "I am!" The concept of "the alpha and the omega" is truly humbling and supremely awe-inspiring.

So very, very true!!! "I am" is the most important meditation known to me.

[man of Yosemite]

It is true that God's ways are higher than our ways, and his thoughts are higher than our thoughts as the heavens are to the earth. So, for people to criticize God for allowing evil is to assume the place of God, judging him, as if we had that capacity. We should hold our hand upon our mouths like Job, having spoken of things which we know not. If God did not allow evil, none of us would be posting here, for there is none who are without sin, even the innocent babe will bring it forth in time. However, God has decided to show forth his great mercy, inviting us to be joint-heirs with his own Son, pouring out his Spirit in the inner man, enabling us to know the deep things of God, calling us a holy nation, a royal priesthood. That is a staggering concept not yet grasped by the skeptic or unbeliever.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much for sharing your beautiful insight!!!

[man of Yosemite]

Concerning your post 210, that was an excellent read. Thanks for sharing that.

[Alamo-Girl]

I'm so very glad you enjoyed it! It was a remarkable find for me.

[marron]

You guys have done a really good job of fighting the good fight, I have been watching from the sidelines, my access to a computer has been a little hit and miss...

The idea that the search for wisdom and understanding is somehow an affront to God, I think, tells us more about the person espousing it than it does about the nature of philosophy. The hunger for knowledge, the thirst to know and to understand is inherent in our nature. It is God-given, in other words.

That some who are of a philosophical bent are separated from God is not surprising; so are quite a number of auto mechanics and postmen. That fact does nothing to detract from repairing or delivery as a profession. The search for truth, pursued in all sincerity, cannot help but lead you toward God; truth itself is ultimately unified. The existence of sophists and atheists among us changes nothing.

This is similar to the question of liberty where some considered God as enemy of liberty, and liberty the enemy of God, whereas others consider God to be its source, that liberty is a gift from God, and that furthermore you cannot truly serve God in the absense of liberty.

Intellectual conformity is not obedience to God, it is obedience to our fellows, and usually it will be obedience to the lowest common denominator. You have to be prepared to question or you can never know, and what you know can never be yours in the absense of the active search. But an active search guarantees missteps and mistakes; if you are afraid to be wrong you can never move beyond the uniform thinking of your own set; if you insist on hiding in the crowd God really can't use you because he can't move you, because you do not dare.

I see the hostility to "wisdom" as an unhealthy fear of living. A healthy fear of God is probably in order but a life that is driven by a love of God, rather than fear, is the life he intended I believe. And if you love him you will shake off the fear of being occasionally wrong and pursue him; we can call it the pursuit of truth, which it is, but it is really the pursuit of God, and it is an act of love, really.

[PatrickHenry]

Well said.

[betty boop]

Dear marron -- I have nothing to add to your last, except tears of joy and the most deeply-felt sense of personal gratitude.

Thank you, dear friend.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you oh so very much for your beautiful post and all your encouragements!

A healthy fear of God is probably in order but a life that is driven by a love of God, rather than fear, is the life he intended I believe. And if you love him you will shake off the fear of being occasionally wrong and pursue him; we can call it the pursuit of truth, which it is, but it is really the pursuit of God, and it is an act of love, really.

So very true, marron, the pursuit of truth is really the pursuit of God and it is an act of love!

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth. – John 4:23-24

[unspun]

Thumbs up on the observation that Christians have been the catalyst for advanced study (and actual learning) over the history of... Christians.

It's historical fact that should teach all of us (especialy Christians).

Our knowledge and our earthly means of gaining it have bounds however, and we disserve ourselves to be ignorant of that. Also, "of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." ;-)

[unspun]

And the righteous search for knowledge is far different than vainglorious worship of it. In the pursuit of knowledge and the place we give ourselves to seek it, we are also better off worshiping the source of knowledge, than ourselves as knowledge seekers.

[Alamo-Girl]

Indeed, unspun! And what an appropriate verse! Hugs!

[marron]

"of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh."

You can say that again...

[Kudsman]

Hi bud,

It's the same question. It's my same answer. I believe there is no evil in the Kingdom of Heaven. I don't want to get too in to this thread. I'm sure there are many FReepers here much more able than I. I'm taking a little poetry these days. C-ya.