Why Does God Allow Evil? - Email from a Skeptic

Koinonea House Online ^ | Dr Mark Eastman

[Alamo-Girl]

Verily, I am the most misunderstood of freepers.

LOLOLOL! I love that line, it would make a great tagline!

As I understand it, revelation is some kind of direct input, straight into the mind of the prophet. When we read scripture, however, it's not that kind of direct input. We read it. Then we have to mull it over. The prophet doesn't need to do that. He "gets it" directly. We don't.

The Bible used to be just a book to me, something to be studied with a magnifying class, lexicons, commentaries, maps, etc.

But as I grew in the Lord, surrendered my self will to His will, the indwelling Holy Spirit within me becomes more evident and the words of Scripture come alive within me.

It's not just a book to me any longer.

Now, when I am troubled by anything, a Scripture comes to mind. Sometimes, I am compelled to certain passages after prayer. I did not memorize the Bible, so it is obvious this is not my self will, it is a type of revelation. Granted, it is not of the stature of the prophets but it is more than simply studying a book.

My testimony, FWIW.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for the link! What an amazing gift!

[PatrickHenry]

The Bible used to be just a book to me, something to be studied with a magnifying class, lexicons, commentaries, maps, etc. But as I grew in the Lord ...

Yes, the better we know something, the more that will happen. Still, unless you're even more special than I think you are, this late-stage understanding of scripture isn't revelation directly from the Original Source. Specifically, I'm thinking of someone like ... say, Moses. Now he was the direct recipient of revelation. We can only read what he received directly. That was my whole point about the difference between what is learned by revelation (presumably a very rare happening) and the way the rest of us learn everything else.

Oh ... observe the tagline.

[Cvengr]

Now, when I am troubled by anything, a Scripture comes to mind. Sometimes, I am compelled to certain passages after prayer. I did not memorize the Bible, so it is obvious this is not my self will, it is a type of revelation. Granted, it is not of the stature of the prophets but it is more than simply studying a book.

Your testimony closely describes what is described in Scripture when one studies post-salvation faith. This is why it is important to always enter into prayer with God prior to Bible Study to confess one's known sins and place faith in Him through Christ. That faith allows post salvation sins to be covered and a return of the filling of the Spirit (as discerned from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit). The Greek word translated as faith is 'PISTIS'. In some cases it means a trust or confidence or certainty, but in about a third of the verses it means doctrine or relied upon knowledge.

Verses on sanctification point to how all believers are positionally sanctified upon initial faith, but continue to grow in sanctification over time, again through faith in Christ. That continuing sanctification comes from breathing in knowledge, understanding, Scriptural truth, ..metabolizing that knowledge (gnosis) in the soul (mind) and then it being transformed through faith into epignosis or an outward knowledge, similar to walking in the same doctrine (faith).

When you say you didn't memorize Scripture, but it comes to you, that is a maturing process of the personal spirit. So yes, your volition is involved, in that without remaining faithful in God through Christ, your spirit remains alive and filled by the Holy Spirit.

This is part of the Mystery Church Age, which wasn't available to believers prior to the Incarnation on a routine basis.

Salvation isn't an experience issue, but postsalvation sanctification is an experiential sanctification process. So much of Scripture is dedicated to communicating this aspect, yet, unless one is filled with the Spirit, that doctrine (faith) isn't developed.

The more one matures in this aspect, the more rewards become available for eternity to the believer persevering in the faith.

An interesting feature of this walk is that a believer might fall back from faith by sin, perhaps even an unknown sin, fall out of fellowship, although not intending to be out of faith, devote him/herself to Bible Study, but again unless having returned to God through faith in Him through Jesus Christ, still won't be walking in the spirit.

This is where the description of the least faithful being very religious and the most faithful being least religious arises. The fallen believer, simply scars his soul, his mind, his ability to perceive and comprehend faith (doctrine) the longer he fails to return to God through faith.

It's almost a case where one has either got it, or they don't. Hard to communicate, but considering so much of Scripture throughout the history of mankind teaches these points, and yet so few learn it tells me the issue is more than one talking about it, but again so incredibly simple and free to all.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you both so much for your replies! I love the tagline, PatrickHenry! LOLOL!

Now he [Moses] was the direct recipient of revelation. We can only read what he received directly.

I understand what you are driving at, PatrickHenry - but there is a real difference between reading the words and receiving the Word. As Cvengr said, it is very "hard to communicate" but it is nevertheless true.

Still, unless you're even more special than I think you are, this late-stage understanding of scripture isn't revelation directly from the Original Source.

Actually I do call it a direct revelation, but not unique or special in the sense of Moses, Daniel, Paul, John, etc. As Cvengr beautifully describes in post 164, this direct revelation [or whatever you may choose to call it] is available to all Christians!

Your essay is magnificent, Cvengr! A keeper for me and I’m sure others as well. There is only one thing I’d care to add. You said:

Verses on sanctification point to how all believers are positionally sanctified upon initial faith, but continue to grow in sanctification over time, again through faith in Christ.

What “triggered” this process in my particular case was surrender. I had been a Christian already for a rather long time, but had a problem with being willful. It occurred to me that every time I tried to do things “my way”, He let me, and I failed. I was meditating on Gethsemane and this verse from Hebrews 1:3 came to mind (emphasis mine):

Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Like a flash it came to me that there was no bright line between the Father and the Son, Jesus is so fully surrendered to the Father’s will that I could not tell where one left off and the other began. Many Scriptures came to mind with ringing clarity. I could spend days chatting about all those verses, but the bottom line is that I had to surrender self-will to abide in Him (John 15 and 17):

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. - Matthew 16:24

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. – Philippians 2:5-8

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. – John 10:17-18

Thank you both oh so very much for this wonderful discussion!

[betty boop]

Does he reincarnate or return? Where is the risen body?

According to Holy Scriptures: He does not "reincarnate," but He does return. The risen body was visible to the Apostles for a time -- but it was apparently not a "physical" body, but a glorified body. Then He ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father, where presumably He will remain, until He returns to judge the living and the dead.

[cornelis]

was apparently not a "physical" body

But physical enough to touch?

[betty boop]

But physical enough to touch?

That is what the Holy Scriptures say. cornelis, we have no precise information about details. We do know Christ invited Thomas to put his hand in His side, and Thomas did so. Thomas apparently was satisfied on the basis of this experience that, indeed, Christ rose from the dead and was, in fact, newly "alive."

Perhaps Thomas needed to believe via the route of material perception -- which may be why he had so much "doubt" in regard to spiritual truths. And the Lord accommodated his need to assure himself on the basis of what was most easy for him to understand; that is, the physical, perceived by means of sense impression.

Stephen M. Barr, in Modern Physics, Ancient Faith, notes that miracles may best be understood, not as divine interventions into physical reality, but as divine irruptions into human consciousness. That is, the medium in which miracles occur is not matter, but human consciousness -- they manifest, not pre-eminently in physical reality, but in the soul.

I thought that was a very interesting hypothesis, especially in light of the fact that it comes from a highly-regarded physicist who is a devout Roman Catholic.

But the fact remains, however God works these things is just fine by me.

Thanks for writing, cornelis. This has been an amazing conversation.

[Markofhumanfeet]

Philosophy is where people live

So how does Colossians 2:8 mesh with that? The philosophies of men, aren't they just vain deceit? According to the apostle Paul they are.

[Markofhumanfeet]

Interesting that you are now on the religion forum. I wonder how you would feel if everytime you wrote something here, the regular posters would start making obnoxious troll alerts, hmmmm?

[Dataman]

Interesting that you are now on the religion forum. I wonder how you would feel if everytime you wrote something here, the regular posters would start making obnoxious troll alerts, hmmmm?

Excellent point. You'll find most evos operate in "survival of the fittest" mode which is exactly opposite of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for the ping to your reply! But the fact remains, however God works these things is just fine by me.

Ditto. The best clues I've read thus far about the resurrection body are in Corinthians 15:42-48, shown at post 123 - namely, that the resurrection body is spiritual and incorruptible.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your post and for your question:

Me: Philosophy is where people live

You: So how does Colossians 2:8 mesh with that? The philosophies of men, aren't they just vain deceit? According to the apostle Paul they are.

I do not read Colossians 2:8 the same way that you do. Here is the verse for anyone interested:

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

In my understanding, the warning applies to "philosophy and vain deceipt" which is "after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

For instance, this warning would not apply to philosophy of religion which is after Christ - but it would apply to metaphysical naturalism (atheism), pantheism, etc.

IMHO, other philosophies such as constitutionalism, consequentalism, Platonism, Marxism, et al must be weighed against the Word:

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane [and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: - I Timothy 6:20

I find no conflict between Platonism and conservatism and the Word. I do find considerable conflict with Marxism, epiphenomenalism and others.

My two cents...

[man of Yosemite]

The prophets received information in a variety of ways. Some heard God directly, like Samuel. Some received visions like Isaiah, while others like Daniel received dreams. I was once severly reprimanded by a parking attendant at a hospital when I mentioned to him that I should have worn my volunteers coat in order to avoid paying the parking fee. He said, "If you're not here as a volunteer, you should pay the fee." It was a chastisement from God, and although it stung, it was as true as any statement could have been. Remember, God once used an ass to speak to Balaam.

[man of Yosemite]

Another magnificent fact about the resurrection of Christ, is that he will now always dwell in human form. God, in his love for us, has encapsulated himself forever in a human body. And not only that, but he invites us to be partakers of his glory, with promise of glorified bodies as well. This transcends the idea of reincarnation as the heavens do the earth. What great plan will be unfolded when the sons of God enter their glory? There will be eternal frontiers then.

[betty boop]

In my understanding, the warning applies to "philosophy and vain deceit" which is "after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

Exactly, Alamo-Girl. (Maybe I should just say I completely agree with you here!)

God did not create man with reason and free will in order for man not to employ these great gifts. What He does demand, however, is that we discriminate what is true from idle, vain works of men. Self-lobotomy is not required as an act of faith.

[connectthedots]

God did not create man with reason and free will in order for man not to employ these great gifts. What He does demand, however, is that we discriminate what is true from idle, vain works of men. Self-lobotomy is not required as an act of faith.

A distinguishing characteristic between Christianity and cults. The God of the Bible does not fear the truth while the Gods of the cults must run from the Light.

[betty boop]

The God of the Bible does not fear the truth while the Gods of the cults must run from the Light.

Well and truly said, connectthedots! Thank you!

[betty boop]

Another magnificent fact about the resurrection of Christ, is that he will now always dwell in human form. God, in his love for us, has encapsulated himself forever in a human body. And not only that, but he invites us to be partakers of his glory, with promise of glorified bodies as well. This transcends the idea of reincarnation as the heavens do the earth. What great plan will be unfolded when the sons of God enter their glory? There will be eternal frontiers then.

The glorified body is by far the most transcendent sort of reincarnation, man of Yosemite! Thank you for your beautiful insight, so well expressed.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you both so very much for your beautifully worded wisdom! I know I will use these two in the future:

Self-lobotomy is not required as an act of faith.

The God of the Bible does not fear the truth while the Gods of the cults must run from the Light.

In fact, I might merge them as follows:

Self-lobotomy is not required as an act of Judeo-Christian faith, but the false "gods" of the cults must run from the Light