But Is Mel Gibson Catholic?

Pangaeus ^

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

You are ignoring Rome's comments since. They have backtracked. They know the inital condemnation was wrong. The term 'irregular relationship' comes from the Vatican. If you think Rome is wrong to describe the SSPX as such then take it up with them.

Rome would not advise the faithful that they are allowed to attend schismatic Masses. Did Msgr. Perle say we can attend Old Catholic services if need be? Gosh, I wonder why not.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

I'd attend the Bishop's Cathedral Mass

LOL, don't criticize anyone ever again for attending the Mass of "schismatics".

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

The term 'irregular relationship' comes from Rome. I'm surprised more people haven't caught on to the fact Rome doesn't call the SSPX schismatic these days. What changed? Nothing. The 1988 decree was wrong and they know it.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Is it really proper to be discussing the state of a certain individuals soul or whether or not their schismatic?

No, you're right. It's not. None of us are the judge and jury of Mel Gibson's soul or those of his family.

[johnb2004]

if only that would happen

[Campion]

The "church" is the body of believers not a formal organization. Atleast that is what the Bible states.

Where, exactly -- chapter and verse -- does the Bible state that?

[Aquinasfan]

Such as ... ?

One example would be the most important words in the entire Bible, the words that are attributed to Jesus.

How could the early Christians be "Bible Christians" before any of the books of the Bible were written down? Moreover, how could Christians be "Bible Christians" before the year 400 A.D., when the New Testament was finally canonized?

[Aquinasfan]

The "church" is the body of believers not a formal organization. Atleast that is what the Bible states.

These various forms of unity are the object of the prayer after the Last Supper, when Christ prays for His own and asks "that they may be one" as the Father and the Son are one (John, xvii, 21, 22). Those who violate the laws of unity shall become strangers to Christ and his spiritual family: "And if he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican" (Matt., xviii, 17).

In faithful imitation of his Master's teaching St. Paul often refers to the unity of the Church, describing it as one edifice, one body, a body between whose members exists the same solidarity as between the members of the human body (I Cor., xii; Eph., iv). He enumerates its various aspects and sources: "For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, . . . and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink" (I Cor xii, 13); "For we, being many, are one bread, one body, all that partake of one bread" (ibid., x, 17). He sums it up in the following formula: "One body and one Spirit; . . . one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Eph., iv, 4-5). Finally he arrives at the logical conclusion when he anathematizes doctrinal novelties and the authors of them (Gal., i, 9), likewise when he writes to Titus: "A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid" (Tit., iii, 10); and again when he so energetically condemns the dissensions of the community of Corinth: "There are contentions among you. . . . every one of you saith: I am indeed of Paul; and I am of Apollo; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? Was Paul then crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?" (I Cor., i, 11-13). "Now, I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment" (I Cor., i, 10). St. Luke speaking in praise of the primitive church mentions its unanimity of belief, obedience, and worship: "They were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of bread, and in prayers" (Acts, ii, 42). All the first Epistle of St. John is directed against contemporary innovators and schismatics; and the author regards them as so foreign to the Church that in contrast to its members "the Children of God", he calls them "the children of the devil", (I John, iii, 10); the children "of the world" (iv, 5), even Antichrist (ii, 22; iv, 3).

[Catholicguy]

* The teaching office 888 Bishops, with priests as co-workers, have as their first task "to preach the Gospel of God to all men," in keeping with the Lord's command.415 They are "heralds of faith, who draw new disciples to Christ; they are authentic teachers" of the apostolic faith "endowed with the authority of Christ."416

889 In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a "supernatural sense of faith" the People of God, under the guidance of the Church's living Magisterium, "unfailingly adheres to this faith."417

890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium's task to preserve God's people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms:

891 "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . . The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed,"419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith."420 This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.421

892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a "definitive manner," they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful "are to adhere to it with religious assent"422 which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.

[Catholicguy]

LOL. The Excommunication stands. Please post for us the words of the Pope in which he retracts Ecclesia Dei.

Echoing the personal opinions of those who succor the schism is not persuasive - except to schismatics

[Catholicguy]

Ahhh.......the smell of freshly baked Donatism

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Since you have not answered my points I'll take it you have no response.

Nice try with the Donatist accusation. You're desperate.

[Fury]

The last revision of the Latin missal was published in 1962. Hardly the same as saying the traditional Mass wasn't finalized in 1962.

Speaking of this, what Latin Missal are folks using? Is the 1962 version acceptable?

[Catholicguy]

LOL. The Excommunication stands. Please post for us the words of the Pope in which he retracts Ecclesia Dei.
Echoing the personal opinions of those who succor the schism is not persuasive - except to schismatics


130 posted on 01/12/2004 5:43:23 PM EST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Hmmm, let's see. The Pope says one thing, the LIVING MAGISTERIUM says another.

What's a Catholicguy to do except shoot the messenger?

[Catholicguy]

I haven't shot the messenger. I have asked the messenger to "show us the money"; post the words of the Pope where he admits he was wrong in excommunicating these schismatics.

The only thing you can do is make repeated, unsourced, assertions. You can't source any of these inane assertions because they do not exist.

If you ever decide to post a document from the Living Magisterium that retracts the excommunications, ping me.

[nmh]

"These various forms of unity are the object of the prayer after the Last Supper, when Christ prays for His own and asks "that they may be one" as the Father and the Son are one (John, xvii, 21, 22). Those who violate the laws of unity shall become strangers to Christ and his spiritual family: "And if he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican" (Matt., xviii, 17). "

I stopped there since there is NO unity when others disregard Biblical teachings. When sources outside the Bible are used such as Aquinas for teachings this violates Scripture and hence not part of the body of believers which the Bible speaks. The body of believers are those that believe in Him and seek teachings of Him which are in the Bible.

[ultima ratio]

The Pope never personally excommunicated Lefebvre. He merely stated in a letter (Ecclesia Dei) that an automatic excommunication had been incurred by the Archbishop's disobedience. But JPII failed to take into consideration the exemptions that his own Canon Law provided. Canons 1321-23 made clear that disobedience in an emergency situation accrues no penalty if the state of necessity has been sincerely evoked. That is to say, no culpability, no excommunication.

Of course, the Pope has stubbornly--throughout his long pontificate--refused to believe his Church has ever been in any real emergency. He continues to await his "springtime", his "new Pentecost"--even as scandals multiply and the faith implodes throughout the West. On the other hand, Archbishop Lefebvre had the good sense to understand the Church most certainly WAS in such a dire state. Putting his faith before even his Pope, he properly disobeyed--though he was normally the most obedient of men--and in so doing rescued traditional Catholicism from certain annihilation.

[Land of the Irish]

I have always thought it ironic, that Ecclesia Dei states an automatic excommunication had been incurred by a good bishop who merely wished to preserve the Traditional Mass; yet that same document, then feebly pleads to the Novus Ordite bishops to make that very same Mass "in a wide and generous application" to the faithful.

[Aquinasfan]

"And if he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican" (Matt., xviii, 17)."

I stopped there since there is NO unity when others disregard Biblical teachings.

On what basis do you reject this teaching of Jesus, which is in the Bible?

Do you hold to the belief that the true "church" is the body of believers? If so, how do you reconcile that belief with Jesus' command to take our disputes to the church (not churches)? For Jesus' command to make sense, there must be one, visible, and doctrinally united Church of Christ. You won't find that in the disparate Protestant sects. But you will find one, visible and doctrinally united Catholic Church.

[FYI, Church doctrine is based on written (Scripture) and oral Tradition]