China sets date for first Manned Space launch

MSNBC ^ | 10-10-03 | AP

[RightWhale]

Just throwing it out for discussion. It's hardcore Frankfurt School as filtered through various Berkeley Freshman/Sophomore nervous systems. And that isn't the Berkeley Baptist Divinity School.

[snopercod]

I was accepted at UC Berkeley in '64. I thank the stars that I decided to attend Cal Poly SLO instead.

OTOH, I might have ended up better off financially had I spend most of my working life as a hippie radical instead of an engineer...

[Rockitz]

With China's launch success rate, the astronauts must be looney toons!

[RightWhale]

Chinese television officials have said they will cover the launch live.

[Darksheare]

And NASA sits on it's duff pointing fingers at nothing for the loss of Columbia, scapegoats a few underlings, resigns a few officials, and then finally says 'oops, we goofed' all while China marches on.

*snort*
NASA better get their thumbs out soon.

[bert]

With no apologies to the China bashers, I find this quite exciting.

There is talk on the thread of no space race, and that I think, misses the point. China has great resources and a desire among some of the leaders to make genuine progress.

The end result in some years down the road may be a pardner, not a competetive enemy.

The conquest of space is a human task, and not limited to specific narrow nationalistic goals.

[dr_who_2]

I noticed that a picture of the craft was a spitting image of a typical Russian "bell-jar" style space vessel, except it was a tasteful white instead of dark green. I get the impression that their space program right now is basically a Russian one with a Chinese flag sticker applied to the space capsule, Chinese astronauts, all paid for with Chinese cash. It would have been cooler if the Chinese had developed their own program from scratch, though that arguably would be a bigger waste of money and just as pointless.

Two good things might come out of this. A successful mission will make for happy, patriotic Chinese. It might also give our military here an excuse to pursue expanding their own space presence at the expense of NASA (hopefully no silly manned missions though).

[dr_who_2]

NASA's been there, done that. They could do it again and make manned space flights even more frequent than the cruddy shuttle if they wanted to, but they don't. That's one reason why NASA should be pared down and/or privatised.

[Brett66]

Both the US and Russia had ingenious visionaries that drove their programs, I wonder if China has such an individual? Is there a Chinese Wernher Von Braun working behind the scenes?

[XBob]

49-"Is there a Chinese Wernher Von Braun working behind the scenes?"

Perhaps, perhaps not, however, there certainly is no American Von Braun any longer. The guys with "stars in their eyes" are all dead. And this is exactly what is wrong with NASA, it is now run by burro-crats.

[bonesmccoy]

While it is exciting that the Communist Chinese are launching an independent manned spaceflight, I am concerned more about the military consequences of these rockets.

[bonesmccoy]

Construction of newer manned space vehicles in the USA seems to be a necessity for our civilian space program.

On the other hand, gov't has hindered the development of private launch vehicles. We need to have privatization now.

[dr_who_2]

Construction of newer manned space vehicles in the USA seems to be a necessity for our civilian space program.

For most applications, manned space flight isn't necessary at all. Just more expensive and more problematic. Unmanned missions produce more results for the money, but NASA's record there is also mixed.

I also agree that the government needs to get out of the way of private companies that want to get into space.

[bert]

I understand your thought, but do not have your concern. My view is that the Chineese enemy remains in Russia.

Although they could strike America in retaliation to some very great injury, they lack the capability to cross the water.

They do posess the ability to project their strength to the sparsley populated north. And will.....

[bonesmccoy]

How is it that you believe the Chinese "lack the capability to cross the water" when there are so many COSCO containers sitting in the Port of Los Angeles?

Just wondering...

[bert]

In my mind, COSCO and military invasion are apples and oranges.

Container ships require very specialized facilities to unload and seem not too be effective in an invasion. china has no military tradition off the Asian mainland.

To the contrary, COSCO is in my view a recognition that business is the answer, not the problem. Maoism is dead and something else is evolving in a complex mix of the Mainland, Taiwan, off shore Chineese in Maylasia, Singapore, the Philippines, and even the USA. The influence of Hong Kong is plainly seen on Shanghi. This burgenoning capitalist center is atttracting the folks from the hinderlands to jobs and opportunity.

It simply is not your father's China any more.

I do not know precisely how this evolution is occuring, but I view the change as positive rather than a threat. Poor people are more likely to invade and kill than prosperous ones.....I fear the unwashed zillions to our south much more than I fear China.

[bonesmccoy]

that is precisely the view the Communists want you to have.

The only thing missing from your analysis is that
1. Major Chinese companies are almost uniformly controlled by families involved in the central committees of the Communist party of China.
2. There is no freedom of speech in China
3. Your consumerism of Chinese products fuels the military expansion of China

While you may not view the Cosco container ships as a security hazard for the Port of Los Angeles, I do.

The reality is that those containerships are large enough to bring a concealed weapon of mass destruction to our own ports.

I never viewed a passenger jet in military terms until 9-11.

Based upon the comments on Fox News Channel in the last 24 hours, it is pretty obvious that major security loopholes exist in our ports.

[bert]

With regard to the port situation, containers arrive from all over the world. I fear containers from places with a lower profile than China. We are in a war on terrorism and the bad guys could load up a container in Maylasia or Sri Lanka.

You are correct...Ports and containers are a serious weak point.

I have contact with Americans who regularly visit China as they do their jobs. They are working in factories there that are Chineese, but are also American. They do not express the fears you do. To the contrary, there is a feeling that positive change is underway.

This change may not be entirely to our benefit, but that is the nature of history. We must manage the change as best we can. We ignore the forces of history at our peril.

[bonesmccoy]

Bert,

While I agree that "change" is occuring in Eastern Chinese provinces and that western corporations are partnering with chinese power brokers. These Chinese power brokers are almost uniformly tied to either the Chinese or Taiwanese aristocracy/bureaucracy.

In fact, the split in the Chinese/Taiwanese financial interests were being effectively played off to divide the economic threat against US firms.

However, in the last 10 years (coincidental to the reign of Bubba Bill Clinton), the split between China and Taiwan economically seems to have been bridged through various international corporations doing business with Singapore, Hong Kong, S. Korea, and Japan.

US firms probably also played a role in "opening" PRC ports to US goods.

Unfortunately, the state dept. analysis on PRC threats seems weak. No doubt, my analysis is weaker, but at least I have ground level experience dealing with people from Chinese corporations who usurped massive amounts of building capacity in this area.

It is not to the benefit of the local economics of California cities when a Chinese Communist investor seizes major business assets in a small town and then drives down the cost of lease space.

Essentially, the shelter for the Yuan that is US real estate was used to accomplish two goals:
1. Shelter funds from devaluation of the Yuan and currency devaluation in China.
2. Push down the US economy by forcing down real estate prices (writing off the lease losses permits the US branch of Chinese firms to artificially decrease real estate costs in particular towns).

The end result is that your open access policy to China (without the appearance of further scrutiny) degrades US real estate assets and alters US manufacturing profitability.

This, in my opinion, is a form of economic attack.

The Chinese Communist sympathizers are fostering this economic attack on the base of the US economy.

It is high time that we prioritized US interests ahead of China's.