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Japan: Fuel-Cell Nation
Business Weekly ^ | 10.06.03 | Irene M. Kunii

Posted on 10/09/2003 7:48:13 AM PDT by Dr. Marten

Edited on 04/13/2004 2:16:41 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

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To: rogers21774
The mechanism works like a pocket handwarmer. It's got a wicking mechanism and a very limited air exchange which results in a small glow the size of a pilot light on a gas stove. The amonia is heated over the flame in the compression stage and then expands to the refrigeration stage in a closed loop system. I have one in my Airstream camper and I kid you not.....It's the most efficient method of refrigeration on the planet. When I auto switch over to electricity, I hate the rubling sound of the compressor. When we ran it during the summer for fly-in cookouts parked out on our runway to keep the drinks cold, one fill up lasted over a month.
21 posted on 10/09/2003 9:55:39 AM PDT by blackdog ("This is everybody's fault but mine")
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To: Carry_Okie
I live very rural. I have LP, wood burning, pellet/corn, coal and grid appliances and can switch back and forth based on lowest cost at the time. No one source offers you the best solution. It's a moving target.

I had thought about wind since we are on an old dairy farm which means a deforestation much like JFK Airport that allows the wind to be unimpeded at all times. But once I saw that every wind unit from the 80's and 90's was idle and no longer used, I scrapped that idea.

I also made my own methane digester but found that it took more energy to keep the biomass inside at the correct temperature in cold weather to produce methane than it returned in the way of energy. It also took constant tinkering to keep it safe. I would also get a lot of condensation in the winter months which would run down the inside walls of the metal tank(an old basement oil tank) and the water would drown out the digesting critters. FWIW......

22 posted on 10/09/2003 10:08:43 AM PDT by blackdog ("This is everybody's fault but mine")
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To: Carry_Okie
"I'm looking forward to stationary power applications, fuel cells by night and solar by day running a DC system in the home. The brushless motors are already here."

Why bother to do DC with the advanced state of inverters these days?? I suspect that the lower cost of AC appliances would more than cover the cost of the inverter and the slight efficiency loss that it would add.

23 posted on 10/09/2003 10:13:54 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel)
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To: blackdog
When I was talking bio-mass I meant direct combustion of wood by local harvesting tied into the grid. Here in California we have enough excess fuel to power most of the rural areas in the state while taking better care of habitat.
24 posted on 10/09/2003 10:16:51 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (California: Where government is pornography every day!)
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To: Carry_Okie
"Hybrid cars make a nice technical bridge between piston powered motors and fuel cells (should they turn out to be a good idea, I'm not convinced)."

I wonder if we will see a "methanol economy" as proposed by George Olaf as a transitional stage to (or even instead of) a "hydrogen economy".

25 posted on 10/09/2003 10:17:16 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel)
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To: Wonder Warthog
I suspect that the lower cost of AC appliances would more than cover the cost of the inverter and the slight efficiency loss that it would add.

"Lower cost" now, any reasonable volume in demand would bring that right down. The losses in inverters aren't that slight, at least the one's I remember. High power inverters are pretty expensive too.

26 posted on 10/09/2003 10:23:15 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (California: Where government is pornography every day!)
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To: Wonder Warthog
I wonder if we will see a "methanol economy" as proposed by George Olaf as a transitional stage to (or even instead of) a "hydrogen economy".

Well, there's certainly enough wood out there for one. I've calculated that there is enough extra fuel in the 190 million acres of America's National Forests to power the residential electrical needs for 140 million people on a cintinuos basis. The method was direct combustion firing portable rural boilers and turbines powering small and distributed rural communities. That keeps the need for modifying the grid to a minimum, but it also tosses the idea of the Wildlands Project (a disastrous environmental concept).

Ever wonder why it is that the private, tax-exempt, "charitable" foundations of the founders of big oil companies (Pew, Rockefeller, W. Alton Jones, etc.) are big donors to environmental groups and are pushing the Agenda21?

27 posted on 10/09/2003 10:31:19 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (California: Where government is pornography every day!)
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To: Carry_Okie
bump
28 posted on 10/09/2003 10:48:24 AM PDT by Centurion2000 (Virtue untested is innocence)
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To: Carry_Okie
"Well, there's certainly enough wood out there for one. I've calculated that there is enough extra fuel in the 190 million acres of America's National Forests to power the residential electrical needs for 140 million people on a cintinuos basis. The method was direct combustion firing portable rural boilers and turbines powering small and distributed rural communities. That keeps the need for modifying the grid to a minimum, but it also tosses the idea of the Wildlands Project (a disastrous environmental concept)."

The nice thing about methanol is that you can make it from most any carbon source--wood is just the "traditional" one. You can also make methanol catalytically from natural gas (a good way to use "North Slope" natural gas that is currently just "flared off"--convert it to methanol "on-site" and then transport the liquid fuel in oil tankers). Methanol can be made also be derived from coal (via gasification). One I like is adding the garbage streams from the nations cities as a parallel stream of carbon into that coal gasifier, and add all that currently land-filled carbon to the "methanol supply".

Plus I like the idea that existing IC engines can be readily converted to run on it without the potential problems pertaining to hydrogen (i.e. liquid vs. gaseous fuel).

29 posted on 10/09/2003 2:36:27 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel)
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To: Wonder Warthog
The nice thing about methanol is that you can make it from most any carbon source--wood is just the "traditional" one.

What is the net on that process compared to direct combustion of cellulose including transportation costs to the distillery? Are the waste products as beneficial to soils? The nice thing about distributed local wood combustion is that trucking costs are so low. We have to do SOMETHING with all that wood or our forests and watersheds will be a mess.

You can also make methanol catalytically from natural gas (a good way to use "North Slope" natural gas that is currently just "flared off"--convert it to methanol "on-site" and then transport the liquid fuel in oil tankers).

I think you have another transportation bottleneck there. You would either need a gas pipeline down to the plant, or a conversion facility onsite and a liquid product pipeline. That is a harsh environment for either. How does that compare to piping natural gas and converting it to LNG? My gut says that the LNG is a superior product from the North Slope.

Methanol can be made also be derived from coal (via gasification). One I like is adding the garbage streams from the nations cities as a parallel stream of carbon into that coal gasifier, and add all that currently land-filled carbon to the "methanol supply".

I think this is a rational goal (one that I thought you were talking about when you mentioned methanol). There are some newly discovered bacteria that make the conversion efficiencies very attractive. Some render an oil similar to diesel. I don't know what the plans are for the subsequent waste stream.

Plus I like the idea that existing IC engines can be readily converted to run on it without the potential problems pertaining to hydrogen (i.e. liquid vs. gaseous fuel).

You and me both! Most fuel cell proponents don't realize how important it is to be able to make gradual transitions in a transportation product supply chain (certainly Arnold doesn't). Still, once hybrids render electric power transmission more common, the high speed turbines are an attractive alternative, if nothing else because of their size, weight, and simplicity relative to a piston engine or a hydrogen fuel cell for that matter. With some advanced atomization technology, they too might also be more tolerant to multiple fuels.

30 posted on 10/09/2003 3:19:56 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (California: Where government is pornography every day!)
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To: Carry_Okie
"You would either need a gas pipeline down to the plant, or a conversion facility onsite and a liquid product pipeline. That is a harsh environment for either. How does that compare to piping natural gas and converting it to LNG? My gut says that the LNG is a superior product from the North Slope."

The nice thing about the direct catalytic process is that it is 1) amenable to an on-site conversion facility, 2) is essentially a controlled combustion process (so it provides its own heat source against the harsh environment), 3) the liquid product can be sent down the same heated pipeline that ships the oil (pumping multiple liquids down a pipeline separated by "pipeline pigs" is old hat) to the shipping port, 4) transport of liquid methanol is FAR safer than compressed LNG and 5) uses the existing oil tanker fleet (avoiding the large capital expense of the new and special ships needed to transport LNG).

31 posted on 10/09/2003 3:39:43 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel)
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To: Wonder Warthog
Thanks for the info on that direct catalytic process, with which I am not familiar. The rest of it is a no-brainer.

I know the vapor pressure is lower, but does methanol have the same compatability problems with underground fiberglass fuel tanks as does MTBE (it is certainly less persistent and more compatible)? What are the byproducts of partial combustion insofar as the EPA might be concerned?

Do I have to sell my '69 PowerWagon?

(That's a joke son.)

32 posted on 10/09/2003 3:49:34 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (California: Where government is pornography every day!)
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To: blackdog
...refrigerators powered by methanol, ethanol, kerosene...

My wife's grandfather was killed trying to re-light a kerosene refrigerator. I refer to it as the tragic refrigerator explosion, but I suppose it wasn't funny to those involved.

33 posted on 10/09/2003 3:56:01 PM PDT by js1138
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