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To: hchutch; Chancellor Palpatine; Tamsey
Yeah, that has been my position - it remains my basic position. Governor-elect Schwarzenegger is, from all I have seen, proposed and/or supported something similar in that area, which I believe you have denounced on other threads.

True and understood.

However, to be honest, I never made reference to any polls. However, I feel that it is safe to infer that a significant portion of the defections to McClintock among conservative voters were those who would tend to heavily weigh whether or not a candidate is pro-Life and pro-Second Amendment.

Not saying it ain't so, but I haven't seen anything to indicate that. Abortion and 2A got more play on FR than they did in the campaign as a whole. The issues that were high profile during this campaign were the budget disaster, the car tax, and the driver's licenses for Illegals.

Furthermore, the ballot issues you mention will, in my opinion, also be non-sequitors. In the cvase of repaling SB60, Schwarzenegger is in favor of, albeit he's going to give the legislature a chance to do it first. A tactical difference, but for purists like you, that seems to be an unforgivable sin. The real question is: Do you have enough single-issue voters on this issue to defeat a political candidate over his/her stance on immigration?

When the politician is taking positions contrary tho those held by a vast number of Americans, it won't help that politician win elections, will it?

The anti-SB60 referendum won't moot the reality that Schwarzeneggeer's opposition is on the basis of background checks and security, not that he feels the Aliens who entered Illegaly shouldn't have valid CDL's at all.

Nothing Schwarznegger does will have anything at all to do with mooting the Protect Arizona Now initiative, which was polling between 60% and 70% favorably among Arizonans when I last looked.

Finally, a few comment on "social conservatives" in general. I'll be quite blunt: The way social conservatives have handled the immigration issue in general has pushed me into becoming largely a social libertarian. I read the stuff on VDARE. I've read some of the stuff Sam Francis has written on the topic. In my opinion, Sam Francis is racist, and VDARE treads close to that line. Furthermore, others who write on that issue, including Michelle Malkin, have either decided that it is not a problem OR have taken a "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" approach. For me, that is a deal-breaker.

Well, you are in the decided minority in your pro-Amnesty views, which amount to a "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" approach of your own.

The stuff Chancellor Palpatine originally posted on this thread is another red flag. I remember some of the fuss during last year's gubernatorial campaign over a questionnaire that was sent to Bill Simon where his repsonse did not toe the line for some of these types - and they raised a huge fuss and branded him a sell-out. I saw posts that branded conservatives sell-outs for endorsing Schwarzenegger, including Darrell Issa, who was highly committed to that recall and donated (at a minimumn) hundreds of thousands of dollars for signature gathering.

Sorry, but as far as I am concerned, I think that Chancellor Palpatine has made a pretty strong case in his posts and on his threads. PhiKapMom had done similar research, and she seems to have discovered much of the same stuff. Poohbah has had experience with these folks as well, which he has posted about on this thread.

So far, I've seen an indication that some group of a particular doctrinal viewpoint that I don't share, has claimed influence within the CA GOP that they may or may not have, and that one of them, John Stoos, worked on McClintock's campaign.

There's enough there to warrant some questions of Stoos and McClintock, and some scrutiny of their answers. However, I think much of what has been posted on this thread is prematurely alarmist.

If the CA GOP is overrun by zealous firebrands, why have statewide GOP campaigns (besides Pete Wilson's, and he is a moderate) in California been so tepid from 1994 through 2002?

This has been true of both moderate and conservative Presidential, Senatorial, and Gubernatorial Campaigns here in that time. It doesn't add up to me, therefore, that there has been a wild-eyed takeover by some fringe.

Like I said, though, I'd like to see some answers from Stoos and McClintock as to their account.

Tamsey raised an excellent point on another thread - you might want to think it over - look over the post and the thread before you respond:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/998887/posts?page=30#30

Is that fair enough?

Sure. Here's Tamsey's post, for reference...

Now we have a choice... we can welcome these new moderate GOP voters and slowly convince them that conservatism is the better path for our country... or slam them constantly for the differences that still exist between us and alienate them right back into the left wing.

However, as you can see by the Luntz and CNN polls at #591, as well as every other poll out there, there is no gradualism necessary to get these centrists to the right on Illegal Aliens... they're already here.


597 posted on 10/10/2003 12:14:28 PM PDT by Sabertooth (No Drivers' Licences for Illegal Aliens. Petition SB60. http://www.saveourlicense.com/n_home.htm)
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To: Sabertooth; hchutch
If the CA GOP is overrun by zealous firebrands, why have statewide GOP campaigns (besides Pete Wilson's, and he is a moderate) in California been so tepid from 1994 through 2002?

We're not overrun by zealous firebrands; the leadership of one particular group with a lot of influence was overrun by zealous firebrands, and when primary races didn't go their way (i.e., those eee-vil moderates won them), they've engaged in Bob Mulholland last-minute puke politics against Republican nominees.

"I am religious right, hear me roar. I can't win an election to save my own neck, but I can sure make sure that the guy closest to my position loses!"

598 posted on 10/10/2003 12:21:09 PM PDT by Poohbah ("[Expletive deleted] 'em if they can't take a joke!" -- Major Vic Deakins, USAF)
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To: Sabertooth
And polling numbers also show huge numbers support licensing and registration of firearms. Yet no such laws have passed. Why? Politicians have NOT been defeated due to that opposition by voters who voted on that basis. The evidence is stronger to a contrary position. Ask Al Gore about how he lost West Virginia in 2000.

So, I repeat my question:
Do you have enough single-issue voters on this issue to defeat a political candidate over his/her stance on immigration?
599 posted on 10/10/2003 12:21:49 PM PDT by hchutch ("I don't see what the big deal is, I really don't." - Major Vic Deakins, USAF (ret.))
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