What France does not want you to know about the Roland missles..

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/roland/index.html ^

[photoguy]

Ok, lets throw another can of gas on this fire since its seems about to go out...

France says it stopped makng the Roland 3 missle in 1993, but....

"As part of contracts with OCCAR, the European Defense Procurement Agency, and the French DGA, a programme to upgrade the Roland missile system is in progress. The modernisation includes a new BBKS command and control system and the fitting of the infrared Glaive sight from SAGEM for automatic multi-channel target tracking. The first prototype fire unit was completed in June 1999 and trials began in September 1999. The upgraded Roland is called Roland M3S. The second prototype in the CAROL shelter-based configuration was completed in October 1999."

Full story: http://www.army-technology.com/projects/roland/index.html

Lets put some heat back into this story! If I can find this so can the media.

[2timothy3.16]

If I can find this so can the media.

Yes, but, unlike you and me, the media is on the side of the frogs.

Good story thanks, bump

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[2timothy3.16]

And, remember, petey jennings is first and foremost a french canadian US hating communist loving...

[StriperSniper]

Ping!

I saw your other thread and thought you might be interested.

[TastyManatees]

Thanks. I saw that this weekend, but as I recall, this new system hasn't even shipped to the French army yet. I don't think they sent it to Saddam before their own men received it.

I have no problem with believing that the French stopped producing the Roland 3 in 1993. Assuming they did, they would still have supplies on hand to sell for years after the fact. I don't think sales in 2001 or 2003 with subsequent reshipments would not be outside the realm of the probable.

Tasty Manatees

[OXENinFLA]

Bump.

[Cicero]

Yes, I thought that French statement was a little too specific in a clintonoid way. "We haven't manufactured. . . ." Yes, but have they assembled, shipped, modified, sold . . . ? Chirac has made a career out of selling Saddam such little toys as nuclear reactors. Why should we think he would stop such profitable activities?

[stuartcr]

I believe they have a right to produce and sell arms, just as any other country.

[secretagent]

If you refer to the 4 missiles discovered by the Polish soldiers, read Tommyjo's posts about this. He really seems expert on this.

The Poles confused an expiration date with a production date, apparently:

The videos clearly show the tags removed from the ROLANDS themselves. The manufacturers plate shows the date of manufacture as 1983. The canister in which the missile is stored in shows the expiry date of the weapon. A similar find by US forces back in April of ROLAND missiles highlighted that the date on the storage canister was 2002. The story broke and the press jumped on the 2002 markings and it was subsequently reported that this was the date of supply/delivery/build. ROLAND 1 and 2's were supplied to the Iraq's during their long war with Iran. These are the remnants of those deliveries from the 1980's carrying shelf life date on the transportation canisters.

Not Roland 3s, but earlier 1s or 2s.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/995109/posts?page=75#75

[Frank_Discussion]

But under sanctions involving Iraq, they couldn't sell to Saddam.

[Frank_Discussion]

"I don't think they sent it to Saddam before their own men received it."

We sell F-15I's to Israel but do not operate them ourselves. The frogs might have produced this as an export-oriented weapon, and certainly could have sold it to non-frog entities.

[secretagent]

See Tommyjo's comments that I reposted in #10 above. The Poles apparently confused an expiration date with a production date, missing the real production date of 1983.

This would make the French correct on this and the Polish apology appropriate.

[TastyManatees]

"I believe they have a right to produce and sell arms, just as any other country."

Correct. But sales to Iraq are no-nos for two reasons:

1. Section 24 of U.N. Resolution 687 (1991) prohibits the sale of any arms to Saddam Hussein. The French have championed the U.N.'s legitimacy as the sole arbiter of the correctness of international relations.

2. The United States has been considering going to war with Saddam Hussein for more than a year. If these missiles were sold to Saddam within the past year or so, then the French would have been engaged in a nasty bit of maneuvering. They woould have been purposefully slowing U.S. action at the U.N. by demanding additional support from that insitution to justify action, while violating explicit prohibitions on arms sales set by the same institution.

Either way, it could be true that the missiles were sold prior to 1991. I just haven't seen an actual explanation of the "error" the French have claimed the Poles made. What's more, although the Poles have been more than deferential to the French, the Polish army or government has not made an explanation of the "error" it claims to have made. Maybe I just haven't seen it yet, but such an explanation would be essential for anyone to believe their retraction came about through anything other than political pressure by the French.

Tasty Manatees

[secretagent]

See Tommyjo's comments that I reposted in #10 above.

Apparently the French sold these older Rolands (1s or 2s) to Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war, before the sanctions.

[Frank_Discussion]

Ok. But my real point is that many countries (the U.S. included) sometimes sell weapons that are primarily export-intended.

[secretagent]

Message received.

[Frank_Discussion]

Yours received as well. You made good points.

[archy]

The Poles confused an expiration date with a production date, apparently:

The videos clearly show the tags removed from the ROLANDS themselves. The manufacturers plate shows the date of manufacture as 1983. The canister in which the missile is stored in shows the expiry date of the weapon. A similar find by US forces back in April of ROLAND missiles highlighted that the date on the storage canister was 2002. The story broke and the press jumped on the 2002 markings and it was subsequently reported that this was the date of supply/delivery/build. ROLAND 1 and 2's were supplied to the Iraq's during their long war with Iran. These are the remnants of those deliveries from the 1980's carrying shelf life date on the transportation canisters.

Not Roland 3s, but earlier 1s or 2s.

The possession and use of Roland missiles by the Iraqis was known as far back as 1990, though a more interesting question might be as to from where the replacements for those missiles expended or otherwise lost by the Iraqis during the 1991 Desert Storm war were obtained, whether from France directly or another Roland end user.

MIDDLE EAST/NORTH AFRICA:

IRAQ*

160 SA-2

140 SA-3

300 SA-6/8/9/14

SA-7

100 ROLAND

---------------

QATAR

12 RAPIER

BLOWPIPE

12 STINGER

6 ROLAND

[* Pre-Desert Storm

-- The Military Balance 1990-91, International Institute of Strategic Studies, Brassy's Defense Publishers, London 1990., Jane's Weapon Systems, Jane's Information Group, London, 1986.]

Operation Southern Watch - Roland anti-aircraft missile firing. Predator imagery showing a Roland surface-to-air missile firing at coalition aircraft May of 2001 (.mpg 1.3 MB)

[secretagent]

The possession and use of Roland missiles by the Iraqis was known as far back as 1990, though a more interesting question might be as to from where the replacements for those missiles expended or otherwise lost by the Iraqis during the 1991 Desert Storm war were obtained, whether from France directly or another Roland end user.

They may have obtained zero replacements. Perhaps the video shows an older Roland, a model 1 or 2 from the 80's with a post 2001 expiration date.