What the war revealed (the vatican and the Iraq war)

Crisis Magazine ^ | 10-1-03 | David Quinn

[LadyDoc]

Personally, I feel the vatican's backing or the UN and European union weakens the church, and presages an anti pope and schism between the PC NWO church and the remnants. But then I tend to be a bit into conspiracy theories ;-)

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[Agnes Heep]

It appears to me as if Christianity is slowly metamorphising into something that's exactly the opposite of what it was originally intended to be.

[bulldogs]

"But then I tend to be a bit into conspiracy theories ;-)"


With good reason. The unsaid "endorsement" of the UN by vatican is very troubling.

[Cicero]

To be fair to the Pope, what he said was essentially that we should pursue every possible avenue to achieve our ends by peaceful means.

We did.

But some of the other bigshots in the Vatican certainly shot their mouths off in a very stupid and unproductive sort of way.

Most traditional-minded Catholics love the Pope, but even saints occasionally go astray on some issues. I think he is off the mark on the related issues of just warfare and capital punishment. He hasn't actually crossed the line, but he has fuzzied these issues up in a way that is very uncharacteristic of everything else he has done.

He seems not to fully understand that it is the solemn duty of a magistrate (i.e. a political leader) to protect and defend his people, and that sometimes a magistrate must use force to accomplish that end.

[Cicero]

To be fair to the Pope, what he said was essentially that we should pursue every possible avenue to achieve our ends by peaceful means.

We did.

But some of the other bigshots in the Vatican certainly shot their mouths off in a very stupid and unproductive sort of way.

Most traditional-minded Catholics love the Pope, but even saints occasionally go astray on some issues. I think he is off the mark on the related issues of just warfare and capital punishment. He hasn't actually crossed the line, but he has fuzzied these issues up in a way that is very uncharacteristic of everything else he has done.

He seems not to fully understand that it is the solemn duty of a magistrate (i.e. a political leader) to protect and defend his people, and that sometimes a magistrate must use force to accomplish that end.

[Cicero]

To be fair to the Pope, what he said was essentially that we should pursue every possible avenue to achieve our ends by peaceful means.

We did.

But some of the other bigshots in the Vatican certainly shot their mouths off in a very stupid and unproductive sort of way.

Most traditional-minded Catholics love the Pope, but even saints occasionally go astray on some issues. I think he is off the mark on the related issues of just warfare and capital punishment. He hasn't actually crossed the line, but he has fuzzied these issues up in a way that is very uncharacteristic of everything else he has done.

He seems not to fully understand that it is the solemn duty of a magistrate (i.e. a political leader) to protect and defend his people, and that sometimes a magistrate must use force to accomplish that end.

[VOA]

It appears to me as if Christianity is slowly metamorphising into something
that's exactly the opposite of what it was originally intended to be.

Just my amateur opinion is that actually what is happening is a schism.
One part is taking an approach to The Holy Bible like the one Democrats/liberals take
to the US Constitution...it's a living document and they add/subtract from it at will.

The other part is taking more of the Republican/conservative approach: The Holy
Bible as is IS the guiding document, even if people must scratch their head to
figure how it applies to current circumstances.

The first group (e.g., Episcopalians) think they are going to enlarge their base
by promoting "pluralism/diversity". Instead they will (sooner, if not later)
see their numbers shrink because in the final end, they stand for nothing.

The second group will enlarge, although maybe not greatly. Because they have to
actually believe hard truths in order to be part of that group.

There I go again...sounding judgemental...

[late bloomer]

As a Catholic, Irish, french candian indian I am now forced to reassess my long search for a meaningful cultural heritage.
Heading for a mountaintop in Tibet... om-om-om

[jwalsh07]

The Pope and the left wing Bishops have offered no comment on the massive and plentiful mass graves found in Iraq. Not a pretty pictur as this Catholic of Irish descent sits in CT observing Rome.

[Libertarianize the GOP]

ping

[hgro]

The Pope and the catholic hierarchy could better spend their time cleansing their church of sexual perverts. It looks like the United States is the only country where the church is being held to at least a partial accounting for the years of perversion that they have foisted on our country. Its my guess that it won't happed in Europe due to centuries of this perverted behavior by priests, cardinals and popes.

[browardchad]

The Pope and the left wing Bishops have offered no comment on the massive and plentiful mass graves found in Iraq. Not a pretty pictur as this Catholic of Irish descent sits in CT observing Rome.

That lack of acknowlegement is truly sad, as are recent reports that the Vatican wants to join the U.N.

My mom was born in Ireland, but she was an atypical conservative Republican from the minute her feet touched US soil. I miss her, but in a sense I'm glad she isn't around to see her beloved church, and Pope, on a such a downward spiral.

[Cicero]

The Pope is probably not even aware of what's going on at this point. I think he is probably focused on his goal.

I should have maybe mentioned a third weakness in his thinking, which relates to the other two. He underestimates the duty of the magistrate to enforce justice, by force if necessary. He underestimates the duty of the magistrate to protect the people, by force if necessary. And he underestimates the duty of the Pope to enforce a reasonable degree of faithfulness to the magisterium among his hierarchy, by firing or excommunicating them if necessary.

I'm a little less sure about the last, because it's a prudential judgment, and it's his to make. As for capital punishment and war, those are prudential judgments for the political leaders of nations to make. The Church can only advise them in general terms.

[JasonC]

"The attitude of the Vatican is doubly bewildering"

The article skates close to the obvious reason for it but doesn't take the last step. Yes the attitude of many toward multilaterialism is a sort of substitute church. Yes that church lacks any track record of moral wisdom or leadership to justify affording it authority in such matters. But the church wants the sentiments behind that attitude to exist. It wants them strengthened. It just also wants them directly toward itself, rather than toward the UN or the EU.

The Vatican is jealous of the respect and deferrence the left is according to the UN in such matters. It wants the same position of moral leadership of an ideological consensus it sees operating on the secular left. Instead of a stern lecture about misplacement of such loyalty where it is not deserved, it has said "me too" because it longs for the same respect towards itself.

Prudentially, some Vatican officials may think it better to foster such attitudes with the distance hope they can eventually be redirected toward the church. They do not want to undermine the principle behind the sentiment because they expect to need it themselves. Personally, I do not approve of this. I think it would be much clearer to side with the Iraqi oppressed and praise the US for defying public opinion in favor of obvious justice. But defying public opinion is not what they are about, just at present.

There have been times when the church has understood the need for that, morally, but this isn't one of them. It is not itself oppressed, and under this pope it is relatively popular or respected among outsiders, than in much of the recent past. It aspires to a position it sees others (the left) constructing out of their collective will. It is hardly surprising that it winds up flattering them, unduly, as a result.

[jays911]

the catholic church is not liberal. the pope, as did most clergy of most faiths, wanted to avoid war. that hardly makes him liberal. nor is the church hierarchy liberal; in fact, they are conservative on almost every issue.
at least here in mid-america, the catholics i know wer more supportive of the war and president bush than the average american. at almost every mass, i heard prayers for the safety of our troops and the success of the war on terrorism.
thagt being said, there is a left-wing brach of catholic clergy and laymen in this country, but primarily where you find the most concentration of the usual suspects--e.g., the coasts, minnesota, college towns, etc.
to be fair, there are anti-americans in way too many groups in this country. let's not smear every catholic, just as we don't smear all college professors, etc.

[Chancellor Palpatine]

Look at the nations of origin for each cardinal for the root of the problem. Very few from the US and Canada, lots from Eastern Europe and the Third World.

Basically, these guys have the same financial ideal as the UN - let North Americans pay for everything while simultaneously blaming them for everything on earth.

[bimbo]

Maybe those European Catholics who enthusiastically back the Vatican's opposition to war (ALL WARS) will also now begin to attend Mass once again and support the Vatican's position against homosexuality and abortion.

I'm not holding my breath.

[sinkspur]

Basically, these guys have the same financial ideal as the UN - let North Americans pay for everything while simultaneously blaming them for everything on earth.

Lots of anti-Americanism in the Vatican, and there has been, for a very long time. In fact, "Americanism"--a desire to bring some of America's democratic principles into the Church--was decried as a heresy by Pius IX and Leo XIII in the last century.

Look at how slow to act the Vatican was in response to the child abuse crisis.

Lots of old men in red silk who don't like us. And, they can make it personal when they want to.

[jwalsh07]

let's not smear every catholic, just as we don't smear all college professors, etc.

You're out of line. Why would I be smearing every Catholic when I am a Catholic and the Grandpa of little Catholics?

Why don't you address the gist of my post and comment on why the Vatican has remained silent on the mass graves in Iraq.