Megachurches, Megabusinesses

Forbes.com ^ | September 17, 2003 | Luisa Kroll

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Christian Capitalism

Megachurches, Megabusinesses

Luisa Kroll, 09.17.03, 12:00 PM ET

Maybe churches aren't so different from corporations. World Changers Ministries, for instance, operates a music studio, publishing house, computer graphic design suite and owns its own record label. The Potter's House also has a record label as well as a daily talk show, a prison satellite network that broadcasts in 260 prisons and a twice-a-week Webcast. New Birth Missionary Baptist Church has a chief operating officer and a special effects 3-D Web site that offers videos-on-demand. It publishes a magazine and holds Cashflow 101 Game Nights. And Lakewood Church, which recently leased the Compaq Center, former home of the NBA's Houston Rockets, has a four-record deal and spends $12 million annually on television airtime.

Welcome to the megabusiness of megachurches, where pastors often act as chief executives and use business tactics to grow their congregations. This entrepreneurial approach has contributed to the explosive growth of megachurches--defined as non-Catholic churches with at least 2,000 members--in the U.S. Indeed, Lakewood, New Birth, The Potter's House and World Changers, four of the biggest, have all experienced membership gains of late. Of course, growth for them has a higher purpose: to spread their faith to as many people as they can. "In our society growth equals success," says Scott Thumma, faculty associate at the Hartford Institute for Religion Research. "And religious growth not only equals success but also God's blessing on the ministry."

In 1970, there were just ten such churches, according to John Vaughn, founder of Church Growth Today, which tracks megachurches. In 1990, 250 fit that description. Today, there are 740. The most common trait that these churches share is their size; average number of worshippers is 3,646, up 4% from last year, according to Vaughn. But they also demonstrate business savvy, with many holding conferences (47%) and using radio (44%) and television (38%), according to a 1999 survey conducted by the Hartford Institute for Religion Research. The average net income of megachurches was estimated at $4.8 million by that same survey.

Churches are exempt from income taxes. But in some cases they do pay an unrelated business income tax on activities not substantially related to the church's religious, educational or charitable purposes. (Churches do pay payroll, sales and, often, property taxes.)

Church Attendance* City, State Pastor

Lakewood Church 25,060 Houston, Tx Joel Osteen

World Changers 23,093 College Park, Ga. Rev. Creflo Dollar

Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa 20,000 Santa Ana, Calif. Pastor Chuck Smith

The Potter's House 18,500 Dallas, Tex. Bishop T.D. Jakes

Second Baptist Church 18,000 Houston, Tex. Dr. H. Edwin Young

Southeast Christian Church 17,863 Louisville, Ky. Bob Russell

First Assembly of God 17,532 Phoenix, Ariz. Dr. Tommy J. Barnett

Willow Creek Community Church 17,115 S. Barrington, Ill. Bill Hybels

Calvary Chapel of Ft. Lauderdale 17,000 Fort Lauderdale, Fla. Pastor Bob Coy

Saddleback Valley Community Church 15,030 Lake Forest, Calif. Dr. Rick Warren

*Catholic churches are not tracked for this study. This is all 2003 attendance data and represents total weekend attendance for each congregation. Source: Dr. John N. Vaughan, Church Growth Today

Technology also plays a large role in helping these giant churches communicate with members and keep track of them. Many provide a transcript of the weekly sermons and an events calendar on the Web site as well as sell products, such as books and CDs. They also allow members to post prayers and donate online. Almost all (99%) have Web sites. "Cell phones, e-mail, complex phone systems and the Internet all enhance the way megachurches work," says Thumma, faculty associate at the Hartford Institute.

Helping churches grow is a business in itself. There is even a publicly traded company, Kingdom Ventures (otc: KDMV - news - people ), whose sole mission is to help faith-based organizations get bigger. In its latest 10Q, the company did disclose that it's received a subpoena from the Securities And Exchange Commission relating to its stock and transactions. Founded in 1999, the tiny company operates 12 subsidiaries and claims to work with 10,000 churches on everything from fundraising to event planning (it provides speakers and artists for events) to upgrading technology by helping sell new audio and visual equipment and sound systems. "One of the reasons megachurches are as big as they are is because they use the technology of today," says Kingdom Chief Executive Gene Jackson, "We can help smaller churches become big with technology."

If that doesn't help, they may steer folks to a new book they are about to publish: PastorPreneur, which is hitting Christian book stores this month. The book teaches pastors to think like entrepreneurs; for instance, encouraging them to set up strategic partnerships with nonchurch groups and to use event marketing to draw in new members.

For a lesson in marketing, religious leaders would do well to study the success of Bill Hybels and his Great Barrington, Ill.-based Willow Creek Community Church. In 1975, he and members of his student ministry went door to door asking residents what kept them away from church. Hybels then crafted his services to address their concerns, becoming one of the first pastors to use video, drama and contemporary music in church and encouraging a more casual dress code. "Hybels really showed that churches can use marketing principles and still be authentic," says Michael Emerson, a Rice University sociology professor who has studied megachurches. Willow Creek, which has a staff of 500 full and part-time employees, is renowned for its conferences and seminars that teach other churches how to market themselves as well as for its "buzz" events, featuring well-known personalities such as country singer Randy Travis, NASCAR Champion owner and former Washington Redskins coach Joe Gibbs and Lisa Beamer, widow of Sept. 11, 2001, hero Todd Beamer--all intended to attract nonchurch goers.

Media has helped spread the message, particularly for Lakewood Church, the largest megachurch in the U.S. In 1981, Joel Osteen, son of then-pastor Joe Osteen, quit college to set up his father's television ministry. The services eventually aired in 140 countries. He also advertised Lakewood on local television and on billboards throughout Houston where the church is located. After his father passed away in 1999, Osteen became pastor and expanded the church's media strategy.

Like most churches, Lakewood's broadcasts had been relegated to the very early Sunday morning shows. Lakewood instead decided to target the top 25 markets in the nation and negotiate for timeslots on the four top networks between 8 A.M. and 10 A.M., rather than working with just one network. It also agreed to increase its budget for airtime to $12 million from $6 million. Its program now can be seen in 92% of the nation's households.

Never satisfied, the church analyzes its media strategy each quarter.

As for the services themselves, Lakewood makes sure to put on a grand show. It has a 12-piece stage band, a lighting designer to set the mood and three large projection screens. The technology will be even more spectacular when it moves into its new home in the former Houston Rockets' stadium "We really want it to feel like a concert," says Duncan Dodds, Lakewood's executive director. Something is working: Church attendance has grown from 6,000 in 1999 when Osteen became pastor to 25,060 today.

Pastor Rick Warren, who founded Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Calif., in 1980, has deftly used technology as well as marketing to spread his message. His Pastors.com, which reaches 100,000 pastors worldwide each week, has e-mail forums, archives of all of his sermons from the past 22 years and a place to post prayer requests. He also sends a free weekly newsletter, Rick Warren's Ministry Toolbox, to pastors. When it came time to launch his book, The Purpose Driven Life, last year, Warren used Pastors.com to invite churches to participate in a "40 Days of Purpose" event (to correspond with the book's 40 chapters). The 40-day-long event attracted 1,562 churches and was kicked off with a simulcast broadcast to all those churches. Some 267 radio stations ran a "40 days campaign" during the same time period. And a CD of "Songs for a Purpose Driven Life" featuring well-known Christian artists was also released. From the start, the books and CDs were distributed in mass-market retailers such as Wal-Mart (nyse: WMT - news - people ), Costco Wholesale (nasdaq: COST - news - people ), Barnes & Noble (nyse: BKS - news - people ) and Borders Group (nyse: BGP - news - people ). It quickly became a New York Times bestseller and has already sold 5.8 million copies, outselling Billy Graham and making it one of the most successful book promotions in Christian publishing history.

No doubt, churches have learned some valuable lessons from corporations. Now maybe they can teach businesses a thing or two. Companies would certainly appreciate having the armies of nonpaid, loyal volunteers. "The business world would love to have that kind of fellowship," says Vaughn.

[safisoft]

I assume this is a joke.

Your previous comment to my saying that the Sabbath is the 7th day was some bizzare comment about creation beginning on Monday (the SECOND day of the week). Do you know what the first day of the week is? Do you know what the 7th day of the week is? Only in modern Europe is Monday considered the first day of the week.

I am assuming you absolutely nothing of the history of the Sabbath in Christianity to be making such odd comments. There is no dispute over which is the first day of the week (common Sunday), and which is the seventh day of the week (common Saturday). I would tell you to go read the decrees of the council Laodicea, the decrees from Constantine following the council of Nicea, Eusebius, but you likely would not know what I am talking about. So give those to you. I assume you have no background in Church history, so I'll start by telling you that the Council of Nicea (where the "Nicean Creed" comes from) was around 321 CE. It was made up of all the Bishops of the church and was presided over by Emperor Constantine. In it, he decreed that the Roman Empire would recognize Sunday as the Sabbath day of rest.

"On the venerable Day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing. in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed."

Bishop Eusebius, was the most notable church historian of the time (he was a supporter of Constantine) recorded this about the establishing of Sunday (1st Day of the Week) as the new Sabbath in the Roman Empire:

"All things whatsoever that it was duty to do on the Sabbath, these we have transferred to the Lord's Day."

The "Lord's Day" was the ecclesiastical language used by those in the 3rd and 4th Century to refer to "Sunday". beginning in about the 2nd Century, they honored the first day of the week as "The Lord's Day" because of the resurrection - but the phrase "The Lord's Day" is only used once in Scripture in Revelation 1. There is no identification with which day of the week (if any) that refers to - but later in the 2nd Century it became to be a phrase used to decribe the First Day of the Week (if you can't count, that is Sunday).

Constantine's decree did not stick. Rome and Alexandria followed through, but the eastern church still was honoring the 7th Day (Saturday) as Sabbath. The Council of Laodicea met around 364 CE to settle this and other issues they saw as resulting from undue influence by Jews in the church:

"CANON XXIX
CHRISTIANS must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ."

Even a casual church history reader - no matter which persuasion regarding Sabbath - will quickly see that early church history spoke of the Sabbath as DIFFERENT and SEPARATE from the "Lord's Day" - which is quickly seen as the 1st Day of the Week (from the Gospels, the day of the resurrection).

If your education regarding Scripture is also lacking, then you likely do not know that the word SUNDAY is not found in Scripture. References are to the # day of the week. Jesus was resurrected on the First day of the Week.

Matthew 28:1: "Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb."

This is repeated in Mark, Luke, and refered to in John.

Regarding which day the early church met together, there are numerous references to meeting on the Sabbath (the 7th day of the week - see Matthew 28:1). There is also this mention in Acts 20:7:

"Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight."

Most anachronistic readers read this and read their experiences into the First Century. They assume that Luke is referring to Sunday night - and Paul's LONG sermon from Sunday morning (after all, doesn't the sermon start at 11:00AM on Sunday - surely PAUL knew that /sacrasm) - all the way until Midnight. It was not until centuries later that the reckoning of when a day begins fell to midnight - when Luke wrote this they followed the Biblical mandate of when a day begins (Leviticus 16, Genesis 1) - "in the evening" i.e. sundown. A day was from sundown to sundown. It was, and still is tradition for Jewish people to meet at sundown "Saturday" and have a "havdalah" service - a time of "sweet" and breaking of bread to remind themselves how sweet the Sabbath is. Havdalah is to separate the Sabbath from the first day of the week (Sunday). The disciples came together to break bread on Saturday night (after sundown, this was the first day of the week). Paul, being a keeper of Sabbath would not have traveled on the Sabbath, so this was a fairwell for him AFTER the Sabbath was over - and he traveled on SUNDAY - the First Day of the Week. (Acts 17:2; Acts 16:13; Acts 13:42)

I do not know your background, but if you are also Lutheran, then you surely know that the Roman church claimed that Luther was not entirely faithful to Sola Scriptura precisely because of the issue of Sunday being considered the Sabbath by Luther and others. Catholic doctrine holds that the moving of Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday is PROOF that the Roman church holds authority over all "Christendom" - because the Bible does not provide that authority. Hence, in their twisted reasoning the Roman church has more authority than Scripture - and Luther knew this by their reckoning. Even some of their more recent catechisms mock Protestants regarding their treating Sunday (if you can't count, that is the First Day of the Week) as "Sabbath".

[AppyPappy]

Do you know what the first day of the week is?

I know now. I have no idea what it was when Creation happened. We celebrate it on Sunday. Man's calendar doesn't apply to God. The 10 Commandments don't say "Remember Saturday and keep it holy".

[safisoft]

might say that this is a matter of taste and that there is no objective beauty, objective majesty, objective reverence. At this point all future discussion is pointless, since the Word of God itself could be subjected to the same standard, and my "tastes" may lead me to the Koran instead. At that point we've slidden into the sticky mire that is postmodernism, the same spirit that prompted Pontius Pilate to ask "What is truth?", and has made a mantra out of the saying "That may be true for you but is not true for me."

Amen. For anyone who believes that what we "call" worship is simply a matter of taste, read the account of the golden calf:

"And he received the gold from their hand, and he fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made a molded calf. Then they said, This is your god [Elohim], O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!' So when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it. And Aaron made a proclamation and said, 'Tomorrow is a feast to the Lord. [YHVH - the Holy Name of God].'" Exodus 32:4-5

The children of Israel claimed to be "worhipping" the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - and even referred to Him by His most Holy Names - yet they were idolatrous.

We are not free to "worship" Him according to our tastes. I would argue further however, that the "experiences" of Sunday morning have little or nothing to do with "worship". When one considers the Biblical view of worhip being what one does with the commands of God ALL DAY, EVERY DAY - "Sunday morning experiences" are insignificant.

Our Pastor, two Sundays ago preached from Warren's book, "The Purpose Driven Life" (funny, sermons used to use the Bible as their source). He used the phrase, "When we come in here, we should do this or that..." dozens of times regarding the "worship" and coming into the "worship center" as if worship was something that we did in one place, and at one time, each week.. This was the VERY issue that the Samaratan woman brought up with Jesus. She was concerned with form and function - and PLACE. Jesus first pointed out that the Samaratans were WRONG and that Jerusalem (and the Jews) had it right - the Temple belonged in Jerusalem, not on Mt. Gerezim as the Samaratans believed. And then Jesus went on to show that worship is about "Spirit and Truth". Truth by every Biblical definition is ABSOLUTE. It is not about PLACE, or method - worship is about living LIVES that are reflections of the One Who has called us.

"... for the Father is seeking such to worship Him." John 4:23b

[safisoft]

It was particularly predestination that did it. I took it for granted that I had full control over my salvation, and hearing of this doctrine made me uneasy, and a little bit angry.

LOL! Good one. It is with particular delight that I take people to Romans 8:29 and Ephesians 1:5 and point out that unlike so many "doctrinal" words - this one is actually IN the Bible - and spoken of favorably! Want to make someone especially angry, let them hem and haw about what those verses mean and try to explain them away - only to point out that the Greek word proorizo [pre-ordain, predetermine,to decide beforehand] is actually used MORE times and is not translated into the English (Acts 4:28; Rom 8:30; 1 Cor 2:7; Eph 1:11) Ouch. Ephesians 1:11 even places our PURPOSE as being subject to HIS will. Quick, someone call Rick Warren - and Zondervan Bookstores... there needs to be some editing to the book, "The Purpose Driven Life".

[safisoft]

I know now. I have no idea what it was when Creation happened. We celebrate it on Sunday. Man's calendar doesn't apply to God. The 10 Commandments don't say "Remember Saturday and keep it holy".

Wow. Never heard such logic. You took issue with my statement that "the Sabbath is the 7th Day" - read your Bible man. But let's parse your words: "Man's calendar does not apply to God". Agreed. So it is not up to our tastes etc. "We celebrate it on Sunday". Wait. Man's calendar does not apply to God. "We" ain't good enough partner, you need to do better. Your issue (logic is too strong a word) seems to be "When do you start counting?" Do you think your frame of reference (i.e. Sunday) as the 7th day is valid - fine - prove that is GOD'S frame of reference and then you have a leg to stand upon.

Do you suppose that Jesus did not know which day of the week the Sabbath was on? Sure He knew, right? If so (I think it is safe to say so, don't you?), then the NEXT day was the FIRST DAY of the Week(that is what it says in Matthew 28:1). Hmm, Jews are IDENTIFIED with Sabbath (as the 7th day - read Exodus 31:13), so that means that everytime you read the word "Sabbath" in the "New Testament" and since modern Jews treat every "Saturday" as the 7th day of the week (and they have not lost count, and to suggest such is idiotic), we can easy show that the day of the week in OUR CALENDAR refered to as the "Sabbath" in the "New Testament" was indeed "Saturday" by our reckoning, and therefore the "7th Day of the Week".

There are many more valid reasons for "Sunday = Sabbath" but the "we-lost-track-so-Sunday = 7th-Day" argument has no validity in scholarly circles, and defies logic if you know anything about Judaism and its practice for the past 2,500 years.

Even secular man knows that "Sunday" is the first day of the week - it is the default in most programming languages.

I thought you were seriously debating in your responses, but apparently not. Did you even read about what the Council of Laodicea said regarding the Sabbath and it being DIFFERENT from "the Lord's Day" (i.e. Sunday)? So you think we lost count between then and now too?

Your thinking would mean that EVERYONE can pick and choose which is the "7th Day" (i.e. Sabbath) for them because (paraphrase) "no one really knows which day it is" - but the Sabbath was defined not for PERSONS - it was defined in the context of COMMUNITY.

The 10 Commandments don't say "Remember Saturday and keep it holy"

Neither are they called the "10 Commandments". That is the man-made "heading" in your Bible. Stop reading the "headings" - stop reading commentaries and read for yourself. Go back and read Exodus 20:9-11:

"Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

What kind of logic says that the hearers did not know which day was the "7th" - after God COMMANDED them to set it apart? Only the kind of logic that tries to approve of of a given practice after the fact. Sorry, they knew which was the 7th day - and it is the same day of the week you call "Saturday".

[Binghamton_native]

What is your opinion of the 40 Days program being used at your church? It is kicking off at our church with the Rick Warren satellite broadcast this coming Saturday evening.

[webstersII]

"The purpose of these churches is to "put on a show" rather than worship the Holy One of Israel. "

You call the stuff that goes on in most mainline denominational churches today is worship? Dressing up in suit and tie and singing a few hymns that contradict the Scriptures is hardly worshipful.

[laker_dad]

Bump for later...

[safisoft]

What is your opinion of the 40 Days program being used at your church? It is kicking off at our church with the Rick Warren satellite broadcast this coming Saturday evening.

At the outset, it appeared to be an idea that our Pastor had (having returned from several months of sabbatical). As such it was at first encouraging as such. How can one disagree with repeating that "man was created to glorify God and enjoy Him forever"?

I do not know where the "40-day" program might possibly differ with what is being preached by our Pastor (except his Powerpoints look professionally done), but from that perspective it is repackaged post-modern evangelicalism mixed with truth. I say that with the utmost caution. It is difficult to argue against correct method when it is being taught as purpose - because there is truth in method - but confusing the two is EXTREMELY dangerous, and indeed, is where the Pharisees went wrong - they thought that the God's commands defined righteousness BY them (i.e. the Pharisees), rather than righteousness UNTO them. Therein lies the problem I see with so many of these popular series - they use truth, to teach a lie. I have been arguing for YEARS that it is a LIE to say, "the purpose of the church is to win the world for Jesus". Evangelism is indeed a task of individual believers, but it is NOT the reason for which they were created - it is NOT our purpose. So to hear a more correct purpose coming out of "40-days" begins as an encouragement - I heard from the 2nd week's study that one purpose we were created for was to worship God (Amen to that), but then I heard the DEFINITION OF WORSHIP being tied to a "worship service" in a "worship center" in a church building, I see that truth is being used to teach a LIE. Worship is not punctual, or even temporal in a sense (i.e. Sunday morning at 11:00AM at the corner of Vine and Madison) - it is persistent - ongoing - a LIFESTYLE lived by FAITH. To define it any less is to turn the hearers into "Sunday Believers". THAT is not our purpose, and it shows that (at least the way this is being presented where I attend) the "purpose" for this is to increase the prestige and power of a man-made institution that has the gall to repeatedly call itself, "The Church of Jesus, and the Bride of Christ". Sorry, WE [believing PEOPLE - individuals, collectively] are the bride of the Messiah - NOT the businesses located at various street addresses around the nation that call themselves "churches".

I fear for our nation, and for our "churches" that God has not seen fit to give us more men from days past like Watchman Nee, Andrew Murray, A.W.Tozer, R.A.Torry, etc. Instead we are seeing the popularity of pablum and the glorification and enrichment of the "person" and men, instead of The Person of Y'shua HaMashiach - Jesus, the Messiah. God incarnate, the spotless Lamb Who alone is Worthy!

[CajunConservative]

Been there before. Decided to double-check, by the way, and the link to the "About Calvary Chapel" page is now an HTTP 404 File Not Found.

I am there right now.

Calvary Chapel

[Lexinom]

No, they are just as guilty. "These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me."

"And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away." 1 Kings 19:14.

Few indeed are left of the faithful churches, where God is worshipped in spirit and in truth. Yet His kingdom continues to spread, to peoples overseas even to the very ends of the earth.

None of us can claim to worship God with a pure heart; we are ALL guilty. Give us repentence, O Lord, for not honoring thee according to thy Word.

[The Grammarian]

Hm. From the homepage, moving the mouse over the heading 'library' then 'About Calvary Chapel' produced a File 404 error. The link you gave worked fine, however.

[Styria]

I was saved during a liturgical part of the service in a Lutheran church.

[WillRain]

Would you say that it was completely or even primarily because of the literguy that you were moved to that decision? or was it rather that it was merely the final event in a sucsession of events?

[WillRain]

Forgive my misunderstanding. We seem to be on the same page after all.

[WillRain]

I respect your opinion on the matter, and feel that further debate between us on it would be counterproductive. The only quibble I would feel compeled to not leave unspoken is that I do not think that if one says that the type of music one uses (which is not claimed to be specificly deliniated by God) is subjective then it naturally and logically follows that the Bible may be taken subjectivly to since it DOES claim to be a direct revelation from God.

Also, if one bases one conception of proper worship music on the Old Testament, then does it not follow that one should base ones conception of the proper place of worship on the Old estament as wel? Should not all our places of worship be patterened on the Tabernacle whose arcitecture comes directly from God?

Bit rethorical that, I don't mean it to sound like a challange. I believe we are at an impass on the matter.

Brothers, all the same. :D

[Jack Armstrong]

Fact ; There is only ONE church.
Fact ; When man organizes "his church" there is little room for the Holy Spirit.
Fact ; I am written in the Lamb's Book. I have no desire to "join" one a social club that carries the name "church".
Answer your challange , you say? I mean to "challenge" no one. I simply observe the overwhelming primary desire of so called "pastors" is to demonstrate "success" in their flesh. This translates to numbers. Obviously if there are more people attending ...then ... it must be "of god". (?) Constantine raised his royal arm and decreed all his realm and soldiers were to be Christian, did that make his domain "chirstian"? When all those people were suddenly converted from "heathens" some 1500 years ago did God suddenly log in everyone in the realm as "saved"? Constantine's decree was an act of the flesh.
God looks on the heart, it is spiritual, when the media reports that America has mega churches ...does that suddenly make people mega saved?
"part of that hereasy" ... What hereasy? I don't give a flip about hereasy... All the mighty men of GOD throughout history who put Jesus before "the so called church" were labeled heratics! I would hope our nation would have a revival of hereasy. Because before you get "REVIVED" you first have to be "VIVED" and 99 per cent of the mega churches are not VIVED yet! Membership in a megachurch counts for nothing in God's eyes. Peace with God is strictly one on one by the breath of Christ Jesus, not through pew sitting in a megachurch. And you speak of a "so called CORE" membership ... does this sound a bit elitest? Am I to assume we have regular members and then we have the real members? Based upon what criteria? Donations? Heavens are there degrees of salvation? Oh we have saved then we have the true spirit filled saved, don't you know? His Church is all Christian! All His members are Saved! They only have one "Pastor" ...
...{Furthermore, I'll wager that a rather large precentage of those members of the good old fashioned literguical creed-reading churches CAN'T answer your challange.}... This is my point exactly! I applaud hereasy, because the only man will judge an heratic, God comforts those who must live their faith against the oppression of man's worldy "churches" .
The church I'm a member of has members reaching back to Moses, David, Stephen and Saul of Tarsus. When you get spiritualized then you will get your Spiritual Eyes!

[WillRain]

Well, that was certianly the most incoherent rant I've seen in a long time.

You want to scream about it be my guest. I'm not up for that sort of thing but knock yourself out.

[Styria]

The succession of events prior to it was the conviction of sins. Being saved wasn't a decision on my part. I just realized during the Psalmody (it was from Psalm 103, I think) what God had been doing for me my whole life. So it was God's Word, but in liturgical form. Waking up and finding you have an entirely different world view isn't something you do to yourself.

The whole liturgy shows God's Word and what he has done for us. People in my church who want to change the service in order to please man just can't seem to match it. I've had other 'successions of events,' one of which shows that Calvary Chapel has messed-up doctrine, but I'm not sure how to phrase it and don't care to get into it at the moment.

[safisoft]

Well, that was certianly the most incoherent rant I've seen in a long time

I especially liked this part, where Jack Armstrong said:

"I am written in the Lamb's Book. I have no desire to "join" one a social club that carries the name "church"."

I agree wholeheartedly, and wish I heard more such "rants" - but no, the "church" is asleep in the light.