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To: Hank Kerchief
I think you and "palmer" are at least raising interesting debate questions and do not deserve to be denigrated as "kooks". I think the law is very strange myself.

The entire law is premised on voluntary compliance under threat of massive civil fines ($11,000 per reported unwanted call).

What I don't know how to find out is precisely HOW the federal givernment intends to ENFORCE the $11,000 per phone call civil penalty. Let's suppose you, an owner of a small local company, calls me (thus instantly becoming, for the purposes of the law, a "telemarketer" too, right?). Then suppose that I do not wish to receive this commercial message (although this does not pertain to political calls, non-profit organizations, companies I already deal with, etc etc). Assume I have proof (say a printout from the registration page of the DoNotCall registry) that I have registered. If I have just received a call, I guess one calls an authority figure to squeal on you. Of course I don't know your phone number, since I don't pay an extra fee for Caller ID, nor do 90% of the people I know.

At that point, some government bureaucrat has to take time to research whether there really was an infraction of this new federal law against calling people for your home-repair business or whatever. How would legally-valid proof be obtained? Proof that a call was made from you to me at a specific time would have to be from your own records, my records, or the phone company.

The average home phone is not connected to a computer system that logs calls, so that's out.

Perhaps they could subpoena the records of the business which makes phone calls. But a telemarketer could either dial the number by hand (hence no computerized records at all), or could refrain from keeping computerized records. Or will the government begin requiring that companies are forbidden to make manual phone calls or have computer crashes?

Otherwise, there will need to be access to the phone system's records. Is there such a thing as a log file record for every single phone call (tens of billions each day) so that this is even physically possible? Would a subpoena be needed, since after all the phone companies are private? Or does the government already have access to all such records?

I keep thinking about all such questions, and I enjoy the debate.

135 posted on 09/27/2003 10:28:30 AM PDT by wildandcrazyrussian
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To: wildandcrazyrussian
Is there such a thing as a log file record for every single phone call (tens of billions each day) so that this is even physically possible? Would a subpoena be needed, since after all the phone companies are private? Or does the government already have access to all such records?

The phone company keeps records called LUDs - local usage details. Basically, a record of the numbers you called, the numbers that called you, and how long those calls lasted. They have to, for billing purposes. Getting the LUDs from the phone company requires a subpoena, or a search warrant if you're the police.

136 posted on 09/27/2003 10:36:50 AM PDT by general_re (SURGEON GENERAL'S WARNING: Quitting Sarcasm Now Greatly Reduces Serious Risks To Your Health.)
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To: wildandcrazyrussian
At that point, some government bureaucrat has to take time to research whether there really was an infraction of this new federal law against calling people for your home-repair business or whatever. How would legally-valid proof be obtained? Proof that a call was made from you to me at a specific time would have to be from your own records, my records, or the phone company

Its not an accidental call to one person that's going to get the telemarketer in hot water. Here in Missouri, they've gone after the guys that have made hundreds or thousands of calls to people on the no-call list after being warned. If that many people say they were called against their will and they subpoena the phone records and determine that the call was made, the telemarketer is screwed. At that point it would be up to him to prove that he had some kind of continuing relationship which is doubtful.

138 posted on 09/27/2003 11:26:09 AM PDT by Dave S
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To: wildandcrazyrussian
Is there such a thing as a log file record for every single phone call (tens of billions each day) so that this is even physically possible?

Yes. I believe they are called CAMA or LAMA, which records are used for automatic billing purposes.

Would a subpoena be needed ...

No. The Telephone companies are called, "private companies," but are highly regulated and must make certain kinds of data available to the government to stay in business.

Or does the government already have access to all such records?

It can have.

Hank

141 posted on 09/27/2003 11:39:02 AM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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