Replies

betty,

I didn't equate Manicheism with Plato or with Platonism, and Platonism is not (in my mind at least) to be equated with what Plato actually wrote or taught. Manicheism posits a cosmic duality; Platonists (as perhaps opposed to Plato) posit a microcosmic one - body and spirit or soul.
Both are wrong, at least in part.

At the same time, I think there are strands of both in Christianity as it is misunderstood by many. I don't blame Plato or Christianity for Christianity misunderstood.

Hank,

what I meant to say (and apparently didn't very well) was that faith is not inherently unreasonable, like some seem to wish, although it may involve more than reason only.
It's hard for me to disagree with most of what you said in post 69. I don't know what other knowledge there is that does not come to us via our senses through which it seems all of our concepts and ideas ultimately originate. Again, I don't see a conflict with Christianity, which teaches that throughout history God has intervened in various ways. One thinks immediately of pillars of fire and cloud, the ark of the covenant, the tablets on which the law was written, etc. in the OT and the physical person of Jesus in the NT and of course, as you pointed out, the Scriptures themselves. In fact, it seems that Christianity is to a great extent the history of God mediating himself to man through physical means.

And I'm sorry I called you a pagan (I assumed you weren't a Christian, and I don't use the term "pagan" perjoratively).

Alamo-girl,

I think anyone who looks will see the cat, just like anyone who looks with care will reach certain conclusions about man, his nature, the way we should behave and other things.
We can also conclude, through reason, that Jesus lived, that he made certain seemingly outlandish claims, that he performed miracles and even that he rose from the dead.
Concluding that one must commit one's self to Jesus fully is a bit different, although the former can play a role in the latter. Hey, I started this thinking we diagreed on something, but I guess we agree after all! It must be getting late.

Thanks.

Thank you so much for your reply, bigcat00!

I think anyone who looks will see the cat, just like anyone who looks with care will reach certain conclusions about man, his nature, the way we should behave and other things.
We can also conclude, through reason, that Jesus lived, that he made certain seemingly outlandish claims, that he performed miracles and even that he rose from the dead.

Concluding that one must commit one's self to Jesus fully is a bit different, although the former can play a role in the latter. Hey, I started this thinking we diagreed on something, but I guess we agree after all! It must be getting late.

Actually, we do disagree on this. In my reply at post 71, I said:

With regard to the cat-in-the-cupboard metaphor, from the Spiritual point-of-view, I assert that anyone can look but not everyone can see. Likewise anyone can listen but not everyone can hear.

The Bible is just text to those who read with the eyes, but to those who can and do read in the Spirit, it is alive. To one who cannot see, Jesus was a good man, but to those who can see, He is the Word of God made flesh.

We can use reason to encourage someone else to look or to listen, but the power to see and to hear is a gift of God.

I said these things based on the Word and on personal experience. Here are some relevant passages:

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. - John 6:63-64

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. – John 14:16-17

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. - Matthew 13:10-16

To sum it up the difference, man can reason (as Plato did) that God must logically exist or that Jesus was not an ordinary human or that the Bible is no ordinary book --- but man cannot know God by his own power.