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To: betty boop
Er, posts numbers 214 and 218 are directed to me, but are in reference to remarks made by you - so I imagine you will want to address them yourself. I will comment after you.

With regard to enlightenment and Christianity, you might find the following verses helpful:

Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places], - Ephesians 1:16-20

For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. - Hebrews 6:4-6

The other points I raised concerned the timing of Plato, history and the prophesy of Daniel at post 40.

220 posted on 10/03/2003 8:21:06 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
Er, posts numbers 214 and 218 are directed to me, but are in reference to remarks made by you - so I imagine you will want to address them yourself. I will comment after you.

no, er, see to which post they refer, at the bottom. The remarks are made by you

223 posted on 10/03/2003 8:27:09 PM PDT by JesseShurun (The Hazzardous Duke Maybe I really am Snowball. You'll never know)
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To: Alamo-Girl
your post 40
224 posted on 10/03/2003 8:30:51 PM PDT by JesseShurun (The Hazzardous Duke Maybe I really am Snowball. You'll never know)
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To: Alamo-Girl
you took betty boop's comments and endorsed them, so explain why
225 posted on 10/03/2003 8:39:08 PM PDT by JesseShurun (The Hazzardous Duke Maybe I really am Snowball. You'll never know)
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop; DittoJed2; f.Christian; HalfFull; gore3000
If you study the Word of God, you see that the son of Abraham, who became the father of the Greeks, along with the other children of the concubines (Genesis 25:6) were given gifts but we know that the true Wisdom, the plan of Salvation, was given to Isaac and his descendents. Therefore it stands to reason, that no one, not Plato, not Aristotle, nor any of the great Arab philosophers, ever had the key to God's knowledge and to then call one of them the forerunner of Christ is absurd
226 posted on 10/03/2003 8:52:31 PM PDT by JesseShurun (The Hazzardous Duke Maybe I really am Snowball. You'll never know)
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To: betty boop
I have company coming again today, so I decided to go ahead and post some of my musings in advance of your response, betty boop - even though Plato is your advocacy on this thread. Hope you don't mind!

It seems to me that God had a plan for Plato much like He had a plan for Cyrus and Alexander the Great (not Jewish) who are specifically mentioned in the Bible. Moreover, I believe His plan was similar to the one He had for John the Baptist - but directed to the Gentiles.

Whereas some historical figures had a role in executing God’s judgments, I believe others – and particularly Plato – had a role in preparing Gentile minds and hearts to receive Christ.

John the Baptist certainly had the mission of preparing the Jewish minds and hearts. He was a direct fulfillment of that prophesy. But Christ said he has other sheep, not of the (Jewish) fold:

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd. – John 10:16

Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, [in whom] my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, [and] them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. – Isaiah 42:1-9

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts. – Malachi 1:11

Therefore it seems reasonable to me that God attended that plan by preparing the Gentiles as He prepared the Jews to receive Christ. Here are some things I believe point to that conclusion:

587 B.C. (approx) – Daniel chapter 8 prophesy that Alexander the Great would conquer Media/Persia

427-347 B.C. – Plato develops philosophies, including Logos and the God who made gods

356 to 323 B.C – Alexander the Great conquered Media/Persia spreading Greek culture and philosophy

150 B.C. – The Essenes withdraw to the wilderness to avoid the Greek influence. Texts are preserved by them.

The Qumran sect's origins are postulated by some scholars to be in the communities of the Hasidim, the pious anti-Hellenistic circles formed in the early days of the Maccabees. The Hasidim may have been the precursors of the Essenes, who were concerned about growing Hellenization and strove to abide by the Torah.

20 B.C. – Philo of Alexandria combines the philosophies of Plato with Jewish thought

Though they were not preserved by the Jews, Philo's works were treasured by Christian writers who seized upon his concept of the Logos, thinking that it was the same as the Logos of the prologue of John's Gospel. To Philo the Logos was "the instrument by which God makes the world and the intermediary by which the human intelligence as it is purified ascends to God again" .However, Philo's Logos is not Divine, nor is it a person and it has no existence apart from the role it performs. Although it was once generally accepted among scholars that there was some dependence by John on Philo's concept of the Logos, it seems more likely that both were drawing on a common Jewish background, into which Philo imported Platonic concepts. So important was Philo to the early church writers that some, such as Eusebius and Jerome even went so far as to claim that he was a Christian. Eusebius records a legendary meeting between Philo and Peter in Rome and both writers argue that Philo's work concerning Jewish ascetics (On the Contemplative Life) is a first hand report of the church (and monasteries!) founded by Mark in Alexandria. It is true to say that by the fourth century "Pious legend would allow no writer so influential on early Christian exegesis to remain unconverted."

28 A.D. – Crucifixion

68 A.D. – Qumran abandoned, scrolls secured

114 A.D. – Justin Martyr illustrates to the Greeks that Plato was inspired, was spreading the doctrine of Moses which he learned in his Egyptian travels; that Plato was speaking of God the Father and of Christ. Justin Martyr’s First Apology

CHAP. LIX.--PLATO'S OBLIGATION TO MOSES.

And that you may learn that it was from our teachers--we mean the account given through the prophets--that Plato borrowed his statement that God, having altered matter which was shapeless, made the world, hear the very words spoken through Moses, who, as above shown, was the first prophet, and of greater antiquity than the Greek writers; and through whom the Spirit of prophecy, signifying how and from what materials God at first formed the world, spake thus: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was invisible and unfurnished, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God moved over the waters. And God said, Let there be light; and it was so." So that both Plato and they who agree with him, and we ourselves, have learned, and you also can be convinced, that by the word of God the whole world was made out of the substance spoken of before by Moses. And that which the poets call Erebus, we know was spoken of formerly by Moses.

CHAP. LX.--PLATO'S DOCTRINE OF THE CROSS.

And the physiological discussion concerning the Son of God in the Timoeus of Plato, where he says, "He placed him crosswise in the universe," he borrowed in like manner from Moses; for in the writings of Moses it is related how at that time, when the Israelites went out of Egypt and were in the wilderness, they fell in with poisonous beasts, both vipers and asps, and every kind of serpent, which slew the people; and that Moses, by the inspiration and influence of God, took brass, and made it into the figure of a cross, and set it in the holy tabernacle, and said to the people, "If ye look to this figure, and believe, ye shall be saved thereby." And when this was done, it is recorded that the serpents died, and it is handed down that the people thus escaped death. Which things Plato reading, and not accurately understanding, and not apprehending that it was the figure of the cross, but taking it to be a placing crosswise, he said that the power next to the first God was placed crosswise in the universe. And as to his speaking of a third, he did this because he read, as we said above, that which was spoken by Moses, "that the Spirit of God moved over the waters." For he gives the second place to the Logos which is with God, who he said was placed crosswise in the universe; and the third place to the Spirit who was said to be borne upon the water, saying, "And the third around the third." And hear how the Spirit of prophecy signified through Moses that there should be a conflagration. He spoke thus: "Everlasting fire shall descend, and shall devour to the pit beneath." It is not, then, that we hold the same opinions as others, but that all speak in imitation of ours. Among us these things can be heard and learned from persons who do not even know the forms of the letters, who are uneducated and barbarous in speech, though wise and believing in mind; some, indeed, even maimed and deprived of eyesight; so that you may understand that these things are not the effect of human wisdom, but are uttered by the power of God.

Here we see Justin Martyr discussing Plato, putting more detail to Paul’s argument to the Greeks in Acts:

Justin Martyr Hortatory (questionable authenticity)

CHAPTER I.-- REASONS FOR ADDRESSING THE GREEKS.

As I begin this hortatory address to you, ye men of Greece, I pray God that I may know what I ought to say to you, and that you, shaking off your habitual love of disputing, and being livered from the error of your fathers, may how choose what is profitable; not fancying that you commit any offence against your forefathers, though the things which you formerly considered by no means salutary should now seem useful to you. For accurate investigation of matters, putting truth to the question with a more searching scrutiny, often reveals that things which have passed for excellent are of quite another sort. Since, then, we propose to discourse of the true religion(than which, I think, there is nothing which is counted more valuable by those who desire to pass through life without danger, on account of the judgment which is to be after the termination of this life, and which is announced not only by our forefathers according to God, to wit the prophets and lawgivers, but also by those among yourselves who have been esteemed wise, not poets alone, but also philosophers, who professed among you that they had attained the true and divine knowledge), I think it well first of all to examine the teachers of religion, both our own and yours, who they were, and how great, and in what times they lived; in order that those who have formerly received from their fathers the false religion, may now, when they perceive this, be extricated from that inveterate error; and that we may clearly and manifestly show that we ourselves follow the religion of our forefathers according to God.

CHAPTER XX.--TESTIMONY OF PLATO.

But Plato, though he accepted, as is likely, the doctrine of Moses and the other prophets regarding one only God, which he learned while in Egypt, yet fearing, on account of what had befallen Socrates, lest he also should raise up some Anytus or Meletus against himself, who should accuse him before the Athenians, and say, "Plato is doing harm, and making himself mischievously busy, not acknowledging the gods recognised by the state; "in fear of the hemlockjuice, contrives an elaborate and ambiguous discourse concerning the gods, furnishing by his treatise gods to those who wish them, and none for those who are differently disposed, as may readily be seen from his own statements. For when he has laid down that everything that is made is mortal, he afterwards says that the gods were made. If, then, he would have God and matter to be the origin of all things, manifestly it is inevitably necessary to say that the gods were made of matter; but if of matter, out of which he said that evil also had its origin, he leaves right-thinking persons to consider what kind of beings the gods should be thought who are produced out of matter. For, for this very reason did he say that matter was eternal, that he might not seem to say that God is the creator of evil. And regarding the gods who were made by God, there is no doubt he said this: "Gods of gods, of whom I am the creator." And he manifestly held the correct opinion concerning the really existing God. For having heard in Egypt that God had said to Moses, when He was about to send him to the Hebrews, "I am that I am," he understood that God had not mentioned to him His own proper name.

CHAPTER XXI.--THE NAMELESSNESS OF GOD.

For God cannot be called by any proper name, for names are given to mark out and distinguish their subject-matters, because these are many and diverse; but neither did any one exist before God who could give Him a name, nor did He Himself think it fight to name Himself, seeing that He is one and unique, as He Himself also by His own prophets testifies, when He says, "I God am the first," and after this, "And beside me there is no other God." On this account, then, as I before said, God did not, when He sent Moses to the Hebrews, mention any name, but by a participle He mystically teaches them that He is the one and only God. "For," says He; "I am the Being;" manifestly contrasting Himself, "the Being," with those who are not, that those who had hitherto been deceived might see that they were attaching themselves, not to beings, but to those who had no being. Since, therefore, God knew that the first men remembered the old delusion of their forefathers, whereby the misanthropic demon contrived to deceive them when he said to them, "If ye obey me in transgressing the commandment of God, ye shall be as gods," calling those gods which had no being, in order that men, supposing that there were other gods in existence, might believe that they themselves could become gods. On this account He said to Moses, "I am the Being," that by the participle "being" He might teach the difference between God who is and those who are not. Men, therefore, having been duped by the deceiving demon, and having dared to disobey God, were cast out of Paradise, remembering the name of gods, but no longer being taught by God that there are no other gods. For it was not just that they who did not keep the first commandment, which it was easy to keep, should any longer be taught, but should rather be driven to just punishment. Being therefore banished from Paradise, and thinking that they were expelled on account of their disobedience only, not knowing that it was also because they had believed in the existence of gods which did not exist, they gave the name of gods even to the men who were afterwards born of themselves. This first false fancy, therefore, concerning gods, had its origin with the father of lies. God, therefore, knowing that the false opinion about the plurality of gods was burdening the soul of man like some disease, and wishing to remove and eradicate it, appeared first to Moses, and said to him, "I am He who is." For it was necessary, I think, that he who was to be the ruler and leader of the Hebrew people should first of all know the living God. Wherefore, having appeared to him first, as it was possible for God to appear to a man, He said to him, "I am He who is;" then, being about to send him to the Hebrews, He further orders him to say, "He who is hath sent me to you."

CHAPTER XXII.--STUDIED AMBIGUITY PLATO.

Plato accordingly having learned this in Egypt, and being greatly taken with what was said about one God, did indeed consider it unsafe to mention the name of Moses, on account of his teaching the doctrine of one only God, for he dreaded the Areopagus; but what is very well expressed by him in his elaborate treatise, the Timæus, he has written in exact correspondence with what Moses said regarding God, though he has done so, not as if he had learned it from him, but as if he were expressing his own opinion. For he said, "In my opinion, then, we must first define what that is which exists eternally, and has no generation, and what that is which is always being generated, but never really is." Does not this, ye men of Greece, seem to those who are able to understand the matter to be one and the same thing, saving only the difference of the article? For Moses said, "He who is," and Plato, "That which is." But either of the expressions seems to apply to the ever-existent God. For He is the only one who eternally exists, and has no generation. What, then, that other thing is which is contrasted with the ever-existent, and of which he said, "And what that is which is always being generated, but never really is," we must attentively consider. For we shall find him clearly and evidently saying that He who is unbegotten is eternal, but that those that are begotten and made are generated and perish--as he said of the same class, "gods of gods, of whom I am maker"--for he speaks in the following words: "In my opinion, then, we must first define what that is which is always existent and has no birth, and what that is which is always being generated but never really is. The former, indeed, which is apprehended by reflection combined with reason, always exists in the same way; while the latter, on the other hand, is conjectured by opinion formed by the perception of the senses unaided by reason, since it never really is, but is coming into being and perishing." These expressions declare to those who can rightly understand them the death and destruction of the gods that have been brought into being. And I think it necessary to attend to this also, that Plato never names him the creator, but the fashioner of the gods, although, in the opinion of Plato, there is considerable difference between these two. For the creator creates the creature by his own capability and power, being in need of nothing else; but the fashioner frames his production when he has received from matter the capability for his work.

1947 – Dead Sea Scrolls were found. The texts evidence purity in the underlying beliefs apart from Greek influence.

4. The sect has most often been identified with the Essenes, who are mentioned by the historian Josephus and are in a few other sources, but are not in the N.T. They were an intensely messianic, apocalyptic, baptist, wilderness, new covenant group, led by a priest they called the "Teacher of Righteousness" who was opposed and possibly killed by the establishment priesthood in Jerusalem.

10. The Scrolls are of great interest to both Jews and Christians. They represent a non-rabbinic form of Judaism, and also contain many important parallels to the Jesus movement. Final interpretations of these materials, with the newly released Scrolls fully factored in, remains open.


231 posted on 10/04/2003 9:59:57 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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