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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl
You said about we cannot know factually any detail of the universe beyond a certain distance, because the light from those parts of the universe has not reached us yet:

Good point, Hank. [Thank you!] Yet [I knew it couldn't last] I suppose eventually more will be "seen" as more of the universe is "lit up" when the light from what is the present Hubble horizon eventually gets here. Maybe not by you or me, but by some future generation. So the question isn't really answerable as a flat-out negative, as far as we know.

Yes, of course, but then, we cannot know there will be anyone here to see it when it does arrive, even though we suppose there will.

(You might check something for me. Isn't the Hubble horizon the theoretical point at which all matter is moving away from us at velocities that preclude the light from ever reaching us? I really cannot remember, but believe there is such a theoretical "border," if not the Hubble horizon.)

Hank

129 posted on 09/29/2003 6:06:27 PM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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To: Hank Kerchief; betty boop
I am not sure what point you have in mind for a Hubbel horizon that would encompass light. We are already able to detect the moment at which photons decoupled and went their way (light formed.)

Harmonics in the Early Universe

The MAXIMA, BOOMERANG, and DASI collaborations, which measure minute variations in the CMB, recently reported new results at the American Physical Society meeting in Washington, D.C. All three agree remarkably about what the “harmonic proportions” of the cosmos imply: not only is the universe flat, but its structure is definitely due to inflation, not to topological defects in the early universe.

The results were presented as plots of slight temperature variations in the CMB that graph sound waves in the dense early universe. These high-resolution “power spectra” show not only a strong primary resonance but are consistent with two additional harmonics, or peaks.

The peaks indicate harmonics in the sound waves that filled the early, dense universe. Until some 300,000 years after the Big Bang, the universe was so hot that matter and radiation were entangled in a kind of soup in which sound waves (pressure waves) could vibrate. The CMB is a relic of the moment when the universe had cooled enough so that photons could "decouple" from electrons, protons, and neutrons; then atoms formed and light went on its way.


132 posted on 09/29/2003 7:26:44 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Hank Kerchief; Alamo-Girl; Phaedrus; unspun; bigcat00
Yes, of course, but then, we cannot know there will be anyone here to see it when it does arrive, even though we suppose there will.

Well, if we keep up this kind of intellectual equivocating in the face of urgent existential problems, Hank, then perhaps the human race will die with us (i.e., with our generation). And then the question would be moot.

On your second question, if you haven't read the Tegmark article on quantum multiverses, please do yourself the favor, for it clears up some of the relevant issues WRT theories of universal "horizons." As I recall it was the Level II multiverse model that provided scope for the expansion of the universe to forever outrun human observation. That's a possibility. But there are other even more interesting possibilities (IMHO) as well.

I read that one of the names for our entire expanding (it appears) universe -- encompassing nebulae, galaxies, solar systems, planets, moons, ecosystems, etc. -- is "the Hubble volume." A volume must have a "border" or container of some kind; or it couldn't be a volume.

Earlier on this thread, bigcat00 made an observation about Eros in connection with Plato's thought, and characterized it -- most accurately in my view -- as the passionate love of Truth, which to a Christian like me is another Name of God.

Plato's Eros was taken "to the next level" in Christian faith, where it was christened in the name Agape.

Humans tend to have a nose for truth. That is, if they're paying any attention at all. Which the distractions, din, and sheer cacaphony of life in the present culture often makes difficult.

Still, maybe we just need to "follow the scent" more....

133 posted on 09/29/2003 7:39:52 PM PDT by betty boop (God used beautiful mathematics in creating the world. -- Paul Dirac)
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