Johnson had JFK Killed: new book

John Gibson Show ^ | 9/22/03 | Ed in NJ

[Ed_in_NJ]

Let me guess: The Warren Commission at the grassy knoll?

[rattrap]

&%$* NO MAN!!!

he was shot by vong from reticuli seven, after having flown to texas from dreamland in his black helicopter. sheeeeesssh, get your facts straight. :-P

[Shooter 2.5]

Good. We're making progress.

Now tell me why a rusty but functional firing pin is relevant to the case.

Why is it a factor to your argument?

[mlo]

And yes, there was another shooter on the grassy knoll; several lines of evidence show this conclusively.

Which lines would those be?

[boris]

"Which lines would those be?"

See the documentary The Men Who Killed Kennedy.

I will briefly summarize three key elements:

1. Sworn testimony of a witness (deaf/mute, as I recall) who witnessed a shooter BEHIND the grassy knoll.
2. Photo evidence which clearly shows a man aiming a rifle from behind the fence at the rear of the grassy knoll.
3. Sworn testimony from a member of the military who heard a shot, heard the bullet whiz past his ear and hit the ground.

Only minor stuff like that...

--Boris

[tpaine]

--- The challenge:

Can anyone post convincing evidence that shot #2 was the bullet that went through JFK & Connally, then was found at Parkland.. - Virtually undamaged?

The Warren Commission could not, thus the Oswald as lone gunman theory fell apart.

[mlo]

Not everything you hear, especially on "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" is true. Evidence must be evaluated.

1. Sworn testimony of a witness (deaf/mute, as I recall) who witnessed a shooter BEHIND the grassy knoll.

Ed Hoffman. Did not tell this story at the time, even though he did report to the FBI and the DPD. He started adding things to his story years later and has continued to add to it over the decades. His father and brother both said Ed had a tendency to distort the facts.

2. Photo evidence which clearly shows a man aiming a rifle from behind the fence at the rear of the grassy knoll.

"Badgeman". "Clearly" is a gross overstatement. Nobody takes this seriously any more. It does not stand up to critical scrutiny. It's a matter of seeing a pattern in a random collection of light and dark patches, like a Rorschach test.

3. Sworn testimony from a member of the military who heard a shot, heard the bullet whiz past his ear and hit the ground.

Gordon Arnold. His testimony isn't "sworn", and it isn't true. Problem is that Gordon wasn't there. There are photos of the area he claimed to be in. He also has changed his story over time when problems with it were pointed out. There are people who've "come forward" about some aspect of this case during the last 40 years who've just made up things. They get attention from it, and probably a few of them are disturbed enough to believe their own stories. They always trip up on some details that give them away. You can't believe everything you hear. This particular program is notoriously bad, even among conspiracy theorists. It is filled with false information.

[mlo]

Can anyone post convincing evidence that shot #2 was the bullet that went through JFK & Connally, then was found at Parkland.. - Virtually undamaged?

It wasn't "virtually undamaged". The Warren Commission didn't insist that it was shot #2. If you clarify the question maybe someone will answer it.

[tpaine]

Can anyone post convincing evidence that shot #2 was the bullet that went through JFK & Connally, then was found at Parkland.. - Virtually undamaged?
-tpaine-


It wasn't "virtually undamaged". The Warren Commission didn't insist that it was shot #2. If you clarify the question maybe someone will answer it.
-mio-


I suggest you talk to 'ichy', your fellow authority, and get your stories straight... -- Here's his claim about shot #2:



No further mentions of magic bullets will be allowed, as they cannot be accounted for in the case closed mind..
128 -tpaine-

You are invited to explain what you imagine would have to have been "magic" about shot #2. Note: If you're wise, you won't use the terms "pristine" or "right-angle turn", as both are incredibly easy to debunk and will only make you look foolishly unaware of the facts you're attempting to opine about. Go for it.
129 -ichy-


Replies
Address:http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/987270/replies?comment=129

[tpaine]

NARA | JFK Assassination Records | Warren Commission Report Chapter 3
Address:http://www.archives.gov/research_room/jfk/warren_commission/warren_commission_report_chapter3.html

Refered lines in Chapter 3, as per the reference numbers..

-264- Examination of the Zapruder motion picture camera by the FBI established that 18.8 pictures or frames were taken each second, and therefore, the timing of certain events could be calculated by allowing 1/18.8 seconds for the action depicted from one frame to the next.

-264-
-266- Tests of the assassin's rifle disclosed that at least 2.8 seconds were required between shots.-266-

-346- The possibility that the second shot missed is consistent with the elapsed time between the two shots that hit their mark. From the timing evidenced by the Zapruder films, there was an interval of from 4.8 to 5.6 seconds between the shot which struck President Kennedy's neck (between frames 210 to 225) and the shot which struck his head at frame 813.
-346-

Lets see if the math works. -- There are 602 frames between 210 & 813..
- Whoops, must be a mis-print , -- let's try frame 313, which makes 103 frames...
-- 103 frames divided by 18.8 frames per second, equals 5.48 seconds, -- max time avail for two bolt cycles and 3 shots..

Thus, -- if shot #1 hits JFK's back at frame 210, then shot #2 misses, and shot #3 hits at frame 313 that equals 3 shots. -- 2.8 seconds for each bolt cycle/aim/fire; for a total of 5.6 seconds..

--- So ~whoops~ again, line 266 must have another mis-print, and really meant it takes 2.3 seconds to cycle the action, aim & fire.
---- Unless the 1st shot was taken, and missed, 43 frames [2.3 seconds] ~before~ frame 210, - at 173 -, when the limo was behind the tree.

-- Or, the 3rd shot missed completely, 2.3 seconds ~after~ JFK's head exploded.
It becomes apparent that shot #2 had to be the shot that 'missed' according to the Warren Reports own timeline, ~if~, big IF, the single bullet theory is to be considered convincing.

Which leaves the issue back in the laps of the re-creators of the actions taken.. Could LHO have aimed & fired 3 shots in 5.48 seconds?

Sounds like magic to me. Most real shooters over the years have agreed. The government/media re-enactments have been so staged as to be unconvincing.

[Shooter 2.5]

Frame by Frame breakdown of the Zapruder Film
With some various theories that have been presented.

Compiled by I. Marc Carlson.
This page was last edited on 30 March 2003
Frame # Event
140 The car turns on to Elm street.
145 [Some people interpret the first shot as having been fired at this point]
151-153 [Some people interpret the first shot as having been fired at this point]
154-155 Kennedy turns his head very rapidly from left to right.
158-160 Zapruder jiggled his camera. [Numerous "Ear-witnesses" recall the first shot being about this point, when the car has just turned the corner onto Elm Street]
160 The little girl who is running next to the Car begins to turn to her right.
162 The little girl has stopped running. Kennedy stops waving. Connally turns his head sharply to the right.
??? James Tague is struck by a piece of flying cement while standing under the end of the triple by-pass. [along a straight line, through the oak tree and the School Book Depository window. A mark in the cement along that line revealed traces of lead and antimony, suggesting that the round had lost its copper jacket -- which can happen when striking a tree branch]
167-210 Foliage blocks a School Book Depository sniper's view of Kennedy (with a small break at 186), according to reconstructions (2.3 seconds). Branches had given partial visual cover for some time before that.
187 (1.5 seconds after frame 160) The little girl has stopped and is staring at the SBD. Kennedy starts waving again. Mrs. Kennedy is looking around.
189-197 Zapruder jiggles his camera again.
188-191(190) [House Select Committee suggests that this is the point at which Kennedy was hit. This is the traditionally held time for that the second shot hit him. Many people believe that this shot was a front shot from a smaller weapon than the 6.5 mm Carcano]
200 No one in the car appears hurt. Kennedy is waving to the crowd with his right hand.
200-224 Zapruder's view of Kennedy is blocked by a highway sign. Even during this time, Kennedy's hand can still be seen over the sign.
202 Phillip Willis's photograph showing Zapruder was shot here.
207 Witness Howard Brennan turns abruptly to the right.
210 As Kennedy becomes visible from the foliage, this is the first opportunity that an SBD sniper would have a chance to fire.
220-228 Zapruder jiggles his camera.
223-224 Probable time that Kennedy was first hit. [At this point, the positions of the two men, Kennedy's leaning slightly forward, and the much taller Connally twisted to the right, with his hand in front of him, holding his hat at lower chest level, make it possible for a single bullet to enter Kennedy's back, pass through his lower throat, into Connally's right back, glance downward off a rib, exit under his right nipple, and enter his left thigh coming to rest, drained of energy, just below the skin.]
224 The right front lapel on Connally's suit flips up as the bullet passed through his chest.
225 Kennedy becomes visible to Zapruder again, his right arm is resting on the edge of the car, having just relaxed from waving. Connally shows no obvious effects.
226 Kennedy is clearly raising his right arm. Conally becomes rigid, and changed his expression [The House Select Committee suggests that this is the point at which Connally was hit based on his facial features and body position.]
227 Kennedy's arm jerks off the car, clearly reacting to the throat shot [This is a clear case of "Thorburn's Position", as his body reacts to the spinal damage caused by the hydrostatic shock of the bullet passing so close to the spine in 223-4. This is supported by the fact that his arms are locked into position until 313] (1/10-2/10 of a second after 223-4) Connally's hat (held in his right hand) begins to move in a reflex response to his radius bone being broken)
228 Kennedy's torso pitches forward suddenly (to 231)
229 Connally's hat drops to its original position.
229-233 Mrs. Connally claimed her husband was shot about this time.
231-234 Connally told the Warren Commission that this was when he remembered being hit.
231 Kennedy stops moving forward.
234 Connally later determines it was at this point. [This is likely when Connally tried to take his next regular breath, the lung punctured only 2/3s of a second before collapsed, and making him feel like he'd just been hit; or, he IS hit at this point and his lung collapses at this point].
235 Connally's mouth opens wide and his body begins to react to the collapsed lung, drawing him down and to the right.
255 Estimated point at which Ike Altgens' picture is shot [showing what appears to be Oswald in the SBD doorway, and an open window in the second floor Dal-Tex broom closet. It also appears to show the crack in the windshield left by bullet fragments (see 337) ].
309?- Zapruder jiggles his camera.
312 Kennedy's head pitches forward suddenly.
313 The 161.2 grain slug, travelling at 2,100 feet per second smacks into the right occipital area of Kennedy's head, shattering the occipital bone and generating tremendous force in the flesh of the brain. The upper right side of his head explodes, blowing brains and bit of bone in an expanding pink cloud. The pieces of the parietal and temporal sections of his skull remain attached by skin, and so fall back into place, creating the appearance of an intact skull. His head lurches back to the left (8.0-8.4 seconds after the first shot) as his body stiffens suddenly from the massive neurological damage, and possibly aggravated by his back brace, or, if you wish, studies have also shown that the head flying back and to the left is also possible because of the matter ejected by the right side of his head exploding in a simple Newtonian happening. The film clearly shows the back of the head to be clean.
by 320 The two officers riding (to the left?) behind the car are splattered with bood and brains, after driving up to and passing through the cloud blown out of the President. (allegedly, a section of Kennedy's right occipital bone was found by Billy Harper, some 35 feet to the left and rear of the impact point
321 Kennedy is slumped to his left, the right parietal area of his skull completely exposed.
337 Kennedy is sliding into Mrs. Kennedy's lap, much of the flesh and bone of his skull hanging hinged by the skin. Two large bullet fragments were found in the car (44.6 and 21.0 grains = 65.6 grains) after they dented some chrome and damaged the windshield, and a "pristine" (Magic) bullet at the hospital (158.6 grains). The average weight of a 6.5 mm Carcano bullet is 161.2 grains. The six fragments removed from Connally would have weighed not more than 1.5 grains all together.
Sources:

Groden, Robert J. The Killing of a President. New York: Penguin Books, 1993.
Posner, Gerald. Case Closed, Lee Harvey Oswald and the Assasination of JFK. New York: Random House, 1993

[Tares]

1st shot: Frame 160

3rd shot: Frame 313

313-160=153 frames

153 frames/18.8 frames per second=8.1 seconds

8.1 seconds to:

1)load second round
2)fire second round
3)load third round
4)fire third round

[Shooter 2.5]

Yep. Two chamberings and two firings.

I would have like to have found this information a couple of years ago, but I haven't read "Case Closed". I'm still reading interviews out of the Warren Report.

I did find out why so many people hate the Warren Report. A serious researcher had to dig so deep into all of the false reports and poor witnesses until they can find the hidden facts. Even the conclusion sounds like it was written by blind men feeling an elephant.

[tpaine]

Compiled by I. Marc Carlson.
This page was last edited on 30 March 2003
Frame # Event
140 The car turns on to Elm street.
145 [Some people interpret the first shot as having been fired at this point]
151-153 [Some people interpret the first shot as having been fired at this point]
154-155 Kennedy turns his head very rapidly from left to right.
158-160 Zapruder jiggled his camera. [Numerous "Ear-witnesses" recall the first shot being about this point, when the car has just turned the corner onto Elm Street]
160 The little girl who is running next to the Car begins to turn to her right.
162 The little girl has stopped running. Kennedy stops waving. Connally turns his head sharply to the right.
??? James Tague is struck by a piece of flying cement while standing under the end of the triple by-pass. [along a straight line, through the oak tree and the School Book Depository window. A mark in the cement along that line revealed traces of lead and antimony, suggesting that the round had lost its copper jacket -- which can happen when striking a tree branch]
167-210 Foliage blocks a School Book Depository sniper's view of Kennedy (with a small break at 186), according to reconstructions (2.3 seconds). Branches had given partial visual cover for some time before that.
187 (1.5 seconds after frame 160) The little girl has stopped and is staring at the SBD. Kennedy starts waving again. Mrs. Kennedy is looking around.
189-197 Zapruder jiggles his camera again.
188-191(190) [House Select Committee suggests that this is the point at which Kennedy was hit. This is the traditionally held time for that the second shot hit him. Many people believe that this shot was a front shot from a smaller weapon than the 6.5 mm Carcano]
200 No one in the car appears hurt. Kennedy is waving to the crowd with his right hand.
200-224 Zapruder's view of Kennedy is blocked by a highway sign. Even during this time, Kennedy's hand can still be seen over the sign.
202 Phillip Willis's photograph showing Zapruder was shot here.
207 Witness Howard Brennan turns abruptly to the right.
210 As Kennedy becomes visible from the foliage, this is the first opportunity that an SBD sniper would have a chance to fire.
220-228 Zapruder jiggles his camera.
223-224 Probable time that Kennedy was first hit. [At this point, the positions of the two men, Kennedy's leaning slightly forward, and the much taller Connally twisted to the right, with his hand in front of him, holding his hat at lower chest level, make it possible for a single bullet to enter Kennedy's back, pass through his lower throat, into Connally's right back, glance downward off a rib, exit under his right nipple, and enter his left thigh coming to rest, drained of energy, just below the skin.]
224 The right front lapel on Connally's suit flips up as the bullet passed through his chest.
225 Kennedy becomes visible to Zapruder again, his right arm is resting on the edge of the car, having just relaxed from waving. Connally shows no obvious effects.
226 Kennedy is clearly raising his right arm. Conally becomes rigid, and changed his expression [The House Select Committee suggests that this is the point at which Connally was hit based on his facial features and body position.]
227 Kennedy's arm jerks off the car, clearly reacting to the throat shot [This is a clear case of "Thorburn's Position", as his body reacts to the spinal damage caused by the hydrostatic shock of the bullet passing so close to the spine in 223-4. This is supported by the fact that his arms are locked into position until 313] (1/10-2/10 of a second after 223-4) Connally's hat (held in his right hand) begins to move in a reflex response to his radius bone being broken)
228 Kennedy's torso pitches forward suddenly (to 231)
229 Connally's hat drops to its original position.
229-233 Mrs. Connally claimed her husband was shot about this time.
231-234 Connally told the Warren Commission that this was when he remembered being hit.
231 Kennedy stops moving forward.
234 Connally later determines it was at this point. [This is likely when Connally tried to take his next regular breath, the lung punctured only 2/3s of a second before collapsed, and making him feel like he'd just been hit; or, he IS hit at this point and his lung collapses at this point].
235 Connally's mouth opens wide and his body begins to react to the collapsed lung, drawing him down and to the right.
255 Estimated point at which Ike Altgens' picture is shot [showing what appears to be Oswald in the SBD doorway, and an open window in the second floor Dal-Tex broom closet. It also appears to show the crack in the windshield left by bullet fragments (see 337) ].
309?- Zapruder jiggles his camera.
312 Kennedy's head pitches forward suddenly.
313 The 161.2 grain slug, travelling at 2,100 feet per second smacks into the right occipital area of Kennedy's head, shattering the occipital bone and generating tremendous force in the flesh of the brain. The upper right side of his head explodes, blowing brains and bit of bone in an expanding pink cloud. The pieces of the parietal and temporal sections of his skull remain attached by skin, and so fall back into place, creating the appearance of an intact skull. His head lurches back to the left (8.0-8.4 seconds after the first shot) as his body stiffens suddenly from the massive neurological damage, and possibly aggravated by his back brace, or, if you wish, studies have also shown that the head flying back and to the left is also possible because of the matter ejected by the right side of his head exploding in a simple Newtonian happening. The film clearly shows the back of the head to be clean.
by 320 The two officers riding (to the left?) behind the car are splattered with bood and brains, after driving up to and passing through the cloud blown out of the President. (allegedly, a section of Kennedy's right occipital bone was found by Billy Harper, some 35 feet to the left and rear of the impact point
321 Kennedy is slumped to his left, the right parietal area of his skull completely exposed.

337 Kennedy is sliding into Mrs. Kennedy's lap, much of the flesh and bone of his skull hanging hinged by the skin. Two large bullet fragments were found in the car (44.6 and 21.0 grains = 65.6 grains) after they dented some chrome and damaged the windshield, and a "pristine" (Magic) bullet at the hospital (158.6 grains). The average weight of a 6.5 mm Carcano bullet is 161.2 grains. The six fragments removed from Connally would have weighed not more than 1.5 grains all together.

______________________________________


1st shot: Frame 160 [Unsupported supposition.. If so, where is the spent bullet?]

3rd shot: Frame 313
313-160=153 frames
153 frames/18.8 frames per second=8.1 seconds
8.1 seconds to:


1)load second round
2)fire second round
3)load third round
4)fire third round
192 -tares-
_____________________________________

--- Carlsens timeline above, which supports the Reports 'single bullet timeline'---


1) Aim, fire, -- Frame 226 shows JFK throat hit.

2) Cycle action, aim, fire second round. Miss.

3) Cycle action, aim, fire third round. -- Frame 313 shows head hit on JFK.

Maximum 103 frames, - 5.48 seconds, - to aim & fire three shots with a rifle that takes 2.3 seconds to cycle the action.

Show me an expert able to convincingly duplicate the feat without fudging, much less a bumbling clown like oswald.
The case is far from 'closed'.

[mlo]

Maximum 103 frames, - 5.48 seconds, - to aim & fire three shots with a rifle that takes 2.3 seconds to cycle the action.

That's only if the second shot missed. And you've misstated the sequence. That's only aiming two times, the time starts when the first shot is fired.

For a first shot miss it's over 8 seconds to aim and fire two shots, as you've already been told.

[tpaine]

The Warren Report itself [see post #190's link] tells us that the second shot missing is 'consistant' with it's SBT.
And this same scenario is the one they have tried, and failed, - to recreate.
What you insist is 'told' is immaterial. The facts from the films timelines speak for themselves.

[PhilDragoo]

The Commission allows only three shots.

One missed, hit the curb twenty feet from the underpass, and the ricochet cut James Tague's cheek.

The damage to the curb was patched with darker material, preventing analysis of residue.

Tague had filmed the nick, after which his home was burgled and the film was the only item taken.

[Decker, too, photographed the nick, and the FBI kept the negatives it took from him.]

Tague was surprised by Liebeler asking about the film, because it was not public that he'd taken it.

The FBI recommended examination by a building materials specialist which is included along with the above information in Harold Weisberg, Case Open, Carroll & Graf, 1994, Chapter XIII, pages 135-166.

Unfortunately for the Warren Commission version, three shots cannot account for the known effects:

A missed shot;

A Kennedy head shot;

A Kennedy back shot without exit, one finger digit deep per autopsists;

A Magic Bullet causing seven wounds including two in bone, leaving Commission Exhibit 399 missing only the two grains carved from its base for NAA testing purposes.

Add various missed shots in the turf, one by the manhole, the windshield--

Not to mention the throat wound which was described as a wound of entry--

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain; he works for the Wizard Commission.

[Calvin Locke]

I find this rich. Wasn't Johnson the one that put the Presidential Order barring assassinations by the CIA,
thanks to the excesses of the Kennedy Bros. (aka the "What are we running? Murder, Inc." quote)

Not that I wouldn't put it past LBJ.

This story has been around almost as long as the first report of JFK being shot.

[tpaine]

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain; he works for the Wizard Commission.
-phil-

What is really amazing about these discussions is the absolute zealotry of the Warren Commissions defenders.

It's hard to imagine what they 'get' out of attempting to justify the governments near TOTAL foul up of this case.

It was apparent from the initial media reports that Oswald was being set up as the lone gunman. I read everything I could get my hands on back in '64, prior to the Report, and finally got a copy hot off the presses..
I, and millions of other interested citizens read the report & immediately wrote our newspapers, outlining the same infantile errors in fact and logic that we still point out today.

Back then there were few apologists for the report.
I find it weird that there are now so many here at FR, -- on a site dedicated in part to rooting out government fraud.
Apparently, the big lie principle is working well.

[Phsstpok]

You laugh, but it is likely that this sort of bizarre chain was involved:

President John Kennedy was nominated and elected thanks to help from organized crime in this country, aka the Mafia. Once in the White House he shared a mistress with mob boss Sam Giancana.  A recent Showtime documentary on Joe Bonano's biography makes several things clear.  Bonano claims, and he is not the only source to do so, that Joe relentlessly pursued the mob - whom he knew from his bootlegging days - for help in electing his son President. They gave that help, then felt double-crossed when Attorney General Bobby Kennedy continued to prosecute them. 

Bonano - who was certainly in a position to know - avers that Joe had promised him in a face to face meeting to rein in Bobby.  Joe had a stroke shortly thereafter.  Bobby was not reined in.  Bonano claims that the mob was in on the assassination in Dallas as pay back for what they saw as a bald faced betrayal. 

This is from a quick Google search on "Bonano Kennedy" based on remembering the book written by Joe Bonano's son.  His father, a NY mafia big, told him that their family was involved in JFKs assassination.  The most likely scenario I've seen involves the NY and New Orleans mob as well as Castro.  The mob felt betrayed by Bobby and JFK.  they could get rid of both threats by killing JFK.  They had lost out big on their gambling investments in Cuba after the debacle with the revolution and the bay of pigs.  They were just getting into the drug business in a big way.  Castro had been personally targeted by the Kennedy assassination machine and was looking for revenge.  Further he could provide a protected corridor for the mob to smuggle their newest vice product from central and south America.  What better action to seal the deal?

Interestingly the New Orleans mob, along with the Dixie Mafia, was instrumental in setting up Bill Clinton in his political career.  As father Guido Sarducci asked, "coinchidenchia?"