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IDF to US: Use more armor in Iraq
Jerusalem Post ^ | Sep. 14, 2003 | ARIEH O'SULLIVAN

Posted on 09/14/2003 3:30:23 PM PDT by yonif

In light of the steady killing of US servicemen in Iraq, a senior IDF officer had some advice for the American forces there: Start using heavily armored vehicles and more tanks.

"When the bodies of more American boys return in plastic body bags, the Americans will learn they have to start driving in armored cars," said the senior IDF field officer.

At least 155 US troops have been killed in Iraq since US President George W. Bush declared the war over on May 1. The latest was Sunday when insurgents fired a rocket-propelled grenade at a Humvee, killing one soldier and wounding three. The attack occurred in Fallujah in apparent retaliation for the accidental killing of 10 members of a local security force by US forces, apparently mistaking them for resistance fighters.

US forces come under fire more than a dozen times daily in Iraq. Most of the fatalities are from attacks on Humvee vehicles. These are only equipped with "soft sided" light armor, which is not effective against RPGs, and their windows are not bulletproof. The Bradley fighting vehicles, on the other hand, are very heavily armored.

Israel uses heavily armored Humvees and APCs in the territories as much as possible and sometimes employs heavy main battle tanks as battle taxis. A senior IDF officer said that the army would continue to use tanks against Palestinian gunmen no matter how damaging to Israel's image overseas.

"The IDF uses tanks and Special Forces and everything it can to beat the Palestinians according to a consideration of what is good for us. If we don't have an alternative to tanks, then we use tanks," he said.

"I don't care how it looks on TV in California. My consideration is to protect our forces and if we hadn't used tanks then we would have had greater number of casualties," the senior officer said. According to the senior commander, the Americans sought Israeli advice on waging an urban war prior to the Iraqi invasion. Most Israeli commanders have enormous praise for the speed and swift success the US military showed in the initial campaign to conquer Iraq.

"The Americans created a strategic shock through air power and special forces. They shaped the battlefield during the course of the war and showed remarkable flexibility," said commander of a main IDF battle group.

Israel is enjoying a benefit of a boost to its deterrence by the American show of power since Arab armies know that the IDF's capabilities, using US weaponry, are similar to the American capabilities. According to top IDF officers, the effect of maintaining and developing its large armored-based ground forces is a deterrent to Arab countries, which decided long ago not to attempt to reach tactical parity with the IDF.

"The moment they understood that capability they opted for the other options, like using proxies to wage campaigns and developing weapons of mass destruction," said the senior officer. But he strongly insisted that no major change in Israel's strategy of maintaining a mighty ground force potential was likely.

The officer said the IDF would reduce its battle order, but that force multipliers that have come into fruition have been introduced and the firepower, maneuverability, and command and control of the IDF Armored Corps today makes them far superior than past larger formations.

"Even if there were not the economic problems facing the nation today, we have understood for some time the need to trim down the [ground] forces," he said. "Israel is taking the older tanks, saluting them, and getting new ones. This is the time to do the reorganization in the IDF, but we won't be taking risks."

"When a general says there is significant force, he isn't just saying it to scare someone. He needs to know he has the capability to stand behind this statement," the senior commander said. "The IDF divisions are very, very powerful."

"Every change that we undertake in the IDF is based on strengthening the IDF through introducing newer items and getting rid of older ones. On land, sea, and air.

"There is a reduction in the size," the senior officer said. "But the IDF is not for one moment giving up on the need for a strong army. A state defends its sovereignty with military might even if there isn't a threat."


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government; Israel; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: armor; idf; iraq; us; war; waronterrorism
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To: STD
Every Faggot allah buggerer on the planet is on his way to IraQ to get his 72 sex slave virgins.


21 posted on 09/14/2003 4:50:15 PM PDT by WestPacSailor (Sorry folks, this tagline's closed. The moose out front should have told you.)
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To: george wythe; STD
Just think that the lack of sufficient armor and troop planning is in large part because Secretary Rumsfeld cannot give in to the fact that
Shinseki was right. More right than him. This is an echo across the US in the everyday. Rum would not attend Shin's retirement ceremony. But he went on TV with his attendence at the new SOCOM commander's change of command. We love SOCOM but our force in IRAQ need numbers and armor now.

There are two other threads going on today about our full casualties in Iraq; and the other about the neoconservatives who are involved at the being generous least, in running the Iraq war. These two play in here.

There is some merit in meeting jihad lunatics in Iraq, but I have come to believe that the Sec Def and company need to consult the Army brass on war planning.

Many of us believe the columnists and others who say that Rum has a vendetta, hangup anyway for the Army. And he just cannot overcome his blind spot

Yes. "Unfortunately, this is a life-or-death issue; I see Americans being killed every day, and I’m not happy about at all.

There is no reason for our GIs to be enforcing traffic laws or chasing carjackers in Iraq. None."




22 posted on 09/14/2003 5:07:29 PM PDT by inPhase
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To: inPhase
Didn't I read there's a terrible shortage of the tracks for the Bradleys and that they are mostly sitting idle in the motor pools right now?
23 posted on 09/14/2003 5:12:06 PM PDT by johnb838 (Deconstruct the Left)
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To: WestPacSailor
Are you proposing that we might fight Secretary Rumsfeld's hi tech war, all agility, lightning strike and precision


with those totally non transformational, heavy, slow, ancient, trucks? ... what do you think we are doing there anyway? Ambush did you say... only liberals compare this to Nam...

well on second thought if it saves troops' lives...
24 posted on 09/14/2003 5:16:34 PM PDT by inPhase
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To: johnb838
Yes but please don't ask me to go fetch...

There is a shortage of everything, shoes, socks, adequate boots, tires, yes tracks, much more.

There was no real planning due to the rose petal drop scenario. The trucks were supplied in the beginning in large part by soldiers and luckily their estimates met many of the needs, like mechanical parts for the convoys,
but the biggest deal is has been a bottled water shortage, a story in itself.
25 posted on 09/14/2003 5:22:21 PM PDT by inPhase
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To: inPhase
Are you proposing that we might fight Secretary Rumsfeld's hi tech war, all agility, lightning strike and precision with those totally non transformational, heavy, slow, ancient, trucks?

These trucks may be heavy, slow, and non-transformational but everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY respects Ma Deuce!

Nothin' says luvin' like full auto!


26 posted on 09/14/2003 5:58:35 PM PDT by WestPacSailor (Sorry folks, this tagline's closed. The moose out front should have told you.)
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To: WestPacSailor
Arranging meetings with Allah is our specialty


27 posted on 09/14/2003 6:01:16 PM PDT by WestPacSailor (Sorry folks, this tagline's closed. The moose out front should have told you.)
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To: yonif
the U.S. needs IDF / Mossad advisors in Iraq ASAP ... put 'em in civilian clothes and have 'em "go native" ... draw less attention but share the info ... Bush should ask Sharon behind the scenes ... I'm sure they'd be glad to help ... since Iraq is a lot closer to them than the USA ...
28 posted on 09/14/2003 9:02:09 PM PDT by Bobby777
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To: Bobby777
the U.S. needs IDF / Mossad advisors in Iraq ASAP ... put 'em in civilian clothes and have 'em "go native"

What makes you think this isn't already happening? Would you be all that surprised to find out it was?

29 posted on 09/15/2003 5:14:54 AM PDT by WestPacSailor (Sorry folks, this tagline's closed. The moose out front should have told you.)
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IDF Vehicles

Israeli Humvees (notice how they are closed up)

US Vehicle


30 posted on 01/27/2004 2:35:01 PM PST by yonif ("If I Forget Thee, O Jerusalem, Let My Right Hand Wither" - Psalms 137:5)
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To: WestPacSailor
What in the world it that thing in the top picture, I don't ever remember seeing one of them.
31 posted on 04/14/2004 4:13:33 AM PDT by thiscouldbemoreconfusing
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