Oral Argument in 9th Circus Punchcard Ballot (CA Recall) Case

U.S. Court of Appeals, Ninth Circus ^ | September 11, 2003 | N/A (recording)

[pogo101]

Click on this link -- a .wma file -- to hear the lengthy (!) oral argument in this case brought by the ACLU to halt the recall election, on the grounds that punchcard ballots -- the ones that reelected Gray Davis in 2002 -- aren't fair in 2003.

[pogo101]

Ping

[South40]

Abbreviated version (in print)

[ambrose]

Panel Hears Case on Halting Calif. Recall Appeals Panel, Troubled by Use of Punch-Card Ballots, Asks Why Calif. Recall Should Be Allowed The Associated Press

PASADENA, Calif. Sept. 11 —

In a case reminiscent of the legal battle that clouded the 2000 presidential election, a federal appeals court panel questioned Thursday whether California's recall vote should go forward because six counties still use the flawed punch-card voting system.

Lawyers for civil rights groups that want to stop the election argued that a statistical study showed 40,000 poor and minority voters might have their ballots excluded if punch-card ballots are used in the Oct. 7 election.

U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals Judge Harry Pregerson noted during the hearing that the California secretary of state had found the punch-card system unacceptable because of errors.

"So we have to accept the unacceptable, is that what you're saying?" Pregerson asked lawyers representing the state.

In what appears to be the last major legal challenge to the recall, the panel heard nearly two hours of arguments before taking the case under submission. The panel did not say when a ruling would be issued, but lawyers said outside court that they expect a decision early next week.

The hearing was held to consider an appeal of an Aug. 20 ruling by U.S. District Judge Stephen V. Wilson in Los Angeles, who said he would not delay the recall election because it would be acting against the will of the people.

The legal challenge echoes the problems with "hanging chads" and miscounted votes in Florida during the 2000 presidential election.

Recall proponents want to go forward using punch cards in Los Angeles, Mendocino, Sacramento, San Diego, Santa Clara and Solano counties. Those counties were previously ordered to replace the method with updated equipment by March.

Deputy Attorney General Doug Woods, representing the secretary of state, acknowledged during the hearing that the punch-card system has been found "obsolete, antiquated and unacceptable."

Still, there will have to be a transition period for using any new system, he said.

With the election less than a month away, Woods told the judges: "It's too late in the game to switcheroo."

The judges' questions were so tough that Woods also asked that he be given time to seek further review from the U.S. Supreme Court if the appeals court halts the election.

Another member of the panel, Judge Sydney Thomas, said, "The question is whether the difference in technologies is so stark it results in the dilution of votes."

Attorney Mark Rosenbaum, appearing for the American Civil Liberties Union, the NAACP, the Southern Christian Leadership Conference and the Southwest Voter Registration Education Project, told judges there are "grave federal interests" involving the Voting Rights Act and potential discrimination against poor and minority voters who may have difficulty with the punch-card ballots.

"Their votes will not be counted," Rosenbaum said. "Not only do we have vote dilution in these 40,000 cases, but we will have disenfranchisement."

The 40,000 figure cited by plaintiffs represents a possible number of excluded votes due to punch-card ballots as calculated by a statistical expert in election procedures.

At one point, Pregerson said he had considered the plight of voters who have had their recall polling places switched as a result of cost-cutting by cash-strapped counties.

"A lot of these folks get up early to work. They come in after a hard day's work and have to start looking for a new polling place," he said. "People are in a hurry. They go back to the old school where they thought they were supposed to vote and when it's not there they go home."

Woods, arguing on behalf of Secretary of State Kevin Shelley, who certified the election, said the average distance to a replacement polling places is half a mile.

"I thought about that too," Pregerson said. "A mother with four kids goes to where she thought the polling place was. She doesn't have a car or a chauffeur. A half-mile is a long way for her."

photo credit and caption:

Gov. Gray Davis gestures as he answers a question during a town hall meeting held at the KFSN television station in Fresno, Calif., Wednesday, Sept. 10, 2003. The Governor answered questions from six area residents, in areas ranging from workers compensation to vehicle license fees.(AP Photo/Rich Pedroncelli)

Copyright 2003 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

Copyright © 2002 ABC News Internet Ventures.
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[ambrose]

At one point, Pregerson said he had considered the plight of voters who have had their recall polling places switched as a result of cost-cutting by cash-strapped counties. "A lot of these folks get up early to work. They come in after a hard day's work and have to start looking for a new polling place," he said. "People are in a hurry. They go back to the old school where they thought they were supposed to vote and when it's not there they go home."

And just what the hell do polling locations have to do with the punch card case? Pregerson is on crack.

[South40]

Is there any particular reason why you posted a message to me containing the entire text of an article I had just posted a link to?

[daveoverpar]

And I walked to and from school thru 6 foot snow drifts, uphill both ways, and we didn't run whining to the communists. God dam I am sick and tired of all the little sh**holes who stick their d**ks in the democratic process just because they want t-bone steak instead of the sirloin they are offered. The judge is worried about them not going to the right polling place? Let the dam judge drive every single one of the poor fools, who can't read a paper to know where they are susposed to vote, to the proper polling place. And that woman with the four kids. Let her car pool with her neighbor. If'un you don't know where you are susposed to vote you are WAY to stoopid to be voting.

[pogo101]

Not only that, but why didn't the state's attorney simply shoot back,

"Your Honor, everyone -- including those whose polling place is now further away than it was in the prior election -- EVERY REGISTERED VOTER is mailed a ballot pamphlet whose back page IS AN ABSENTEE BALLOT APPLICATION. All the lady in counsel's example would have to do is mail it in, get her absentee ballot by mail, and then mail that in. The only walking that may be involved will be to her mailbox and back."

What galls me is that Pregerson is very smart: He KNOWS all of the foregoing, yet he mouths the words about this lady having to walk, blah blah.

[daveoverpar]

Rosenbaum says there are grave 'federal interests'. My butt. This is a dam state election with no federal interests at all. That's what the SCOUS said about the NJ senatorial election in '02. And there weren't any 'federal interests' in the Ten Commandments case here in Alabama either.

[chiller]

Pregerson pisses me OFF !!!!! He's a fkn liberal who gives no credit to minorities, and expects everything to be done for them. They'll find out where the hell the voting booth is, if they're interested. This country is sick, sick, sick and so am I. Jeez !

[Amerigomag]

Although most political vetrans are certain that the 9th doesn't have a death wish, don't count these liberal wackos out.

Their history gives some credibility to the statement that "it's too early".

[ambrose]

Not only that, there shouldn't be any confusion as to where to vote. Polling locations are stated on every sample ballot.

More to the point, polling locations have nothing to do with the punch card system!

[chiller]

Amen, bother.

[Political Junkie Too]

More to the point, polling locations have nothing to do with the punch card system!

And, since it's acknowledged that the Democrats have a better ground organization where they bus minorities to the polls, the voters don't even have to know where the poll is -- only the bus drivers have to know.

-PJ

[South40]

That’s what I thought. Illogical and useless, as per your usual.

[ambrose]

I wonder how these "easily confused" idiot voters will respond to the touch screen voting machines. LOL.

[South40]

I wonder how these "easily confused" idiot voters will respond to the touch screen voting machines. LOL.

Probably no better than the way you've responded to the FACT that Mcclintock is running a losing campaign.

[ambrose]

http://www.freerepublic.com/help.htm#guidelines
Don't jump threads - If you get involved in an argument in one thread, it's considered poor manners to restart the previous argument in the middle of an unrelated thread.

[South40]

Jump threads? I'll respond to any of your posts, that's my right.

If you can't handle the responses perhaps you should consider more carefully the content of your posts.

[tubebender]

only the bus drivers have to know.

But these are newly licensed drivers and they may not read english, yet...