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To: Hank Kerchief
"The axioms are not assumptions,"

Er, what is the definition of an 'axiom' to you?
Is it not a logical assumption?
How do you "prove" logic if not without some *assumptions* about the laws of logic?

And how do you 'demonstrate' that "existence exists"?

You say: "As for demonstrating them. if you are reading this, then you exist" Do I? What does *I* mean? What is identity?

I am being argumentative, but with a point:

It is far from a mistake to recognize these as assumptions at some point, and to see that all purely logical propositions are of a nature of tautologies, and all other propositions about reality depend at some point on the empirical experience and the *assumption* that the empirical has some validity.

Even HUme discounted "Cogito ergo Sum" - can you prove your identity over time? Can you really say there is a "you", when your mind is a bunch of nueral firings?





63 posted on 09/09/2003 11:46:19 AM PDT by WOSG
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To: WOSG
Even HUme discounted "Cogito ergo Sum" - can you prove your identity over time?

If our fundamental apprehensions were wrong then that would effectively make God a liar. And we know that God exists because truth exists.

Can you really say there is a "you", when your mind is a bunch of nueral firings?

No, which is why materialism is incoherent and self-refuting. But this problem doesn't exist if the mind is properly understood to be a simple spiritual substance.

71 posted on 09/09/2003 12:32:21 PM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: WOSG
I am being argumentative ...

I should hope so. If everybody agreed on everything it would be dull discussion.

Er, what is the definition of an 'axiom' to you?

You asked!

Axioms are explicit statements of primary and fundamental truths implicit in all true statements. Primary means they cannot be reduced to simpler concepts. Fundamental means, all other truths depend on them. They must be true because if they are not true, nothing is true, but if anything is true, they must be.

What Axioms are Not

The true nature of axioms is generally misunderstood. Two very serious mistakes about the nature of axioms are almost universally taught and believed. These mistakes are: 1.axioms are assumptions, and 2. they are self-evident. Neither of these is true.

Axioms are not just arbitrarily assumed premises. This is a mistake derived from the symbolic logic and linquistic analysis. Axioms are discovered, just as any other truths are discovered.

Axioms are also not self-evident. Knowledge we are very familiar with and take for granted often seems "obvious" or self-evident, but all knowledge must originally be discovered or learned. Axioms are so basic, even before they are identified, they are "implied" in almost every thought we have. When they are discovered and understood, their truth seems apparent or obvious, even self-evident, but first they must be discovered and identified.

The fact that they are not self-evident is proven by the fact most people are not aware of the axioms of philosophy and, even when they are defined and identified, are often denied.

What Axioms Are

Axioms are implicit in all truth and identified by three characteristics: 1 irreducible (primary), 2. underived (defined ostensively, not deduced from other concepts), 3. undeniable (cannot be denied without self-contradiction).

Since reality is all that is the way it is and truth is that which describes any aspect of reality correctly, and axioms are fundamental facts or truths about all reality. All true statements assume the axioms, else they would contradict them, and there are no contradictions. But axioms are fundamental facts about reality, what we begin with, existense itself and our consciousness of it. When axioms are finally identified it then becomes obvious they are implied by every concept we have.

Axioms cannot be reduced to simpler concepts by which they can then be explained. This is not always obvious, because we are able to defined all words by means of other words, and the discovery and identification of axioms requires some level of knowledge and reasoning to achieve. The "fundamentality" of axioms is determined by their relationship to all other knowledge. All knowledge ultimately depends on the truth of axioms. No aspect of reality would be possible if any of the axioms were not true.

Axioms, once discovered and identified, cannot be denied without entailing a self-contradiction. This is true because all truth implies the axioms, and any statement that is true implies them. Any specific statement that denies any axiom must assume that axiom is true in the denial.

That's enough.

Hank

86 posted on 09/09/2003 5:51:53 PM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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