A failed Israeli society is collapsing

The International Herald Tribune - first appeared in English in The Forward (New York), was adapted ^ | Saturday, September 6, 2003 | Avraham Burg

[A Broken Glass Republican]

I don't know if the guy's right. Probably a little right and a little wrong. But I find calm exchanges from both sides enlightening...Personally, I learn a lot from them. Shouldn't we encourage that on a discussion forum??

[A Broken Glass Republican]

No, they would be dead that afternoon, not the next day. Via their suicide bombings.

I thought that was obvious in what I wrote........

[A Broken Glass Republican]

I don't see any other answer. I really don't. Things can't continue like they are now.

I saw someone commenting on this the other day....Can't remember who. But he made a lot of sense. He said...

"Like the srife in Northern Ireland, the combatants in Isreal will only stop when they get tired of killing each other."

I'd like to think that is true but it seems the religious fanatics on both sides are MUCH more entrenched here. We'll see...

Personally I wish this had all been settled 500 years ago. Before all the politics.

[dennisw]

I don't see any other answer. I really don't. Things can't continue like they are now........

Give me a some solutions then. I don't see any short of nuking Mecca and Medina. And the Iranian nuke program.

Israel just may move into Gaza and clean it up. That would help matters. Kill all the Paleostinian leaders and kill the Mullahs who incite their mobs. This would help.

[A Broken Glass Republican]

Please...No "Nuke Mecca" comments. Unless it's just a joke (And I can't even tell anymore) that line of thinking is so far out there it's not even worth a response.

[TopQuark]

Thank you for you courtesy. And thank you also for sharing that experience with me. After Sabra and Shatilla (spelling?), in early 1980s, I had a very similar experience. And, like you, what hurt me most was not the Palestinian progaganda but a few Jews who were getting out of their skins trying to prove that they are with them.

We always lose a few. But we endure...

[cookcounty]

"In the '90s my mother went back to visit her father's birthplace. She was in the town cemetary and an older woman came up to her and asked who she was looking for. She gave my grandfather's family name. The response (in German) was: "The Juden. We have no Juden here." That response sent a chill through my mothers spine. It was all so matter-of-fact."

"My mother started to leave, but then the woman asked who she was. She said she was my grandfather's daughter. The woman then asked he to come to meet her husband, who, it turned out, knew my grandfather."

"Still, imagine hearing: "We have no Jews here."

"I hold no malice towards you. You certainly have done no wrong to me or my family. That was another generation, another time."

Agreed. But these stories are nonetheless important to remember, they are so instructive.

Many of us of German-American families cling with added loyalty to our dads and uncles who went quickly and willingly to fight Hitler in WWII. We kind of use it as an "honor preservative."

After my {Lutheran) grandparents came to the US (they left before WWII}, they moved to South Dakota, where they went to a Baptist revivalist meeting and "got saved." Unable to find a nearby Baptist church, they joined the Mennonites, who have many commonalities with the Baptists. But mennonites are also strong pacifists.

My uncles joined the US army already in 1940, even before the war began, which caused a horrible row and earned them excommunication from the church. One of them managed to patch things up after the war and ended up as a church elder, the other joined the Presbyterians.

My connection with the jews comes not only as an American and a christian of the type that is toward the hebraic side, but also because I managed to end up married to a wonderful young Moroccan jewish young lady who has lots of Israeli relatives. My uncles both arrived in Casablanca in 1942, as the Nazis were laying the groundwork to snatch the jews of morocco---including my wife's family. When my wofe was growing up in the 50's, she was pretty impressed with the American GI's that were still frequenting Morocco. "One day, I'm gonna get one of those," she said. And she did.

So life is what? ---pretty "educational" I guess.

[cookcounty]

What's scariest about your story, though is the persistence of anti-Semitism.

[philosofy123]

What a guy. I could not have said it better. Do not let these foaming at the mouth old fart throw labels at you. Forget liberal Jew hating.....

Good comments.

[Salem]

I've been wanting to ping the list on this thread ever since it was posted, in case anybody missed it. There is a lot of good information here and excellent historical and factual apologia by the Jewish and Israel supporting FReepers. Save it; print it out; LEARN.

If you'd like to be on or off this
Christian Supporters of Israel ping list,
please FR mail me. ~
    
Letter To The President In Support Of Israel ~

[massadvj]

Thank you for a very perceptive and revealing post.

For the life of me, I don't understand how "conservatives" who purport to believe in the inalienability of rights, can look the other way when it comes to the rights of Palestinians.

Racial segregation has been a miserable failure everywhere it has been tried. It is anathema to our American sensibility. And yet we continue to subsidize Israel to the tune of $30 billion per year to practice the sort of racial segregation we locked people up for in this country decades ago.

The choices this author offers are obvious to any educated observer in the Middle East. Ultimately, they lead to the same end as the roadmap.

Unfortunately for many Freepers it seems, neither genocide nor ethnic cleansing are options for a civilized society. As the author points out, ultimately Israel must choose between racial separatism or pluralism.

[dennisw]

You are seriously stupid if you think Israel gets 30 billion each year from us. The rest of your post is no better. You want to see an apartheid/segregated nation go visit any Arab nation. They eveicted all their Jews (Israel took in most of these refugees) and have constant wars between their ethnic factions. Such as in Iraq where the Sunnis stomped on/lorded over the Kurds and Shii'ites for decades. Same situation in Syria where the Alewite Muslims are 10% of the population yet rule the others. In 1982 the Syrian dictator killed 20,000 Muslims (women children too) from another sect in Hama Syria

[rmlew]

The King Davi Hotel was hq for the British occupation. It was a legitimate target. The Irgun called in a warning. The surrounding embassies evacuated. The British refused to allow anyone to do so in the building.

[js1138]

I think your concerns can be answered simply by considering how many Jewish and Christian books are available in a country like Saudi Arabia vs how many Muslim books are available in Israel. The answer to such a question will determine what kind of society we wish to have in Israel. I happen to think the problem is not religion per se, but rather the totalitarian mindset that has led Arabs into the realm of socialism and naziism for the last hundred years or so.

[tictoc]

There is a lot of good information here and excellent historical and factual apologia by the Jewish and Israel supporting FReepers.

I agree, and I'm bookmarking this thread for that reason.

[massadvj]

I do not hold the Israelis to the standards of the Muslims. I hold them to the standards of civilized western societies. So long as they pick Americans' pockets for billions upon billions every year, that's the standard that should be applied.

If their desire is to build a racially separatist state then let them do it on someone else's dime. I am opposed to racial segregation in America, and I see no reason to support it in Israel.

Mind you, I don't care so much that this is the solution they have chosen. I mind that I am paying for it. If the Israelis wish to be segregationists, then let them pay for it. I'm tired of my tax money being spent to prop up a government that is built on a foundation of racial segregation and denial of human rights based on ethnicity.

It is anathema to what I believe as an American.

[SunkenCiv]

Abu Buchanan's Fatwah on Israel
Frontpage Magazine ^ | August 31, 2004 | Don Feder
Posted on 08/31/2004 12:56:59 AM PDT by rmlew
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1203643/posts

"An architect of the 1993 Oslo Accords, Burg is bitter because his handiwork (now seen as paving the way for the present jihad) has been overwhelmingly rejected by Israeli society.

"In other words, Burg is as representative of Israel as Michael Moore is of America.

"When it comes to terrorism, Pat practices a moral equivalency worthy of the most slavish Soviet apologists at the height of the Cold War.

"Consider the following: 'Sharon promised peace and security. Since his provocation on the Temple Mount in September of 2000, he has delivered war and hatred. Over 900 Israelis are dead. Some 3,300 Palestinians have died, including hundreds of children.'

"His 'provocation on the Temple Mount'? For an Israeli prime minister to visit Judaism's holiest spot (where the First and Second Temples stood), in Israel's sovereign territory, is a 'provocation'? Besides, Sharon's visit -- which was approved in advance by the so-called Palestinian Authority -- was a pretext for the violence, which was planned months in advance, as Palestinian leaders have since admitted."