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I think that we need to be very care not to come up with an all or nothing standard for victory (not accusing you of that)

Oh, but I am guilty, whether you accuse me or not.

War is a fascinating study. It has laws that it follows, almost like astrophysics. There are reasons man likes it so much, principally because it renders decisions that mere politicians are incapable of.

Victory in war is, by definition, all or nothing. The victors get to dictate terms to the losers, not because the losers now like the victors, or because the victors now can get a favorable UN resolution.

The victors power is such that they can seize the losers' treasure, rape their women, occupy their land, and treat them like slaves, to the extent that they desire.

That is victory.

And that is what is missing from our "victories" in the "war" on terrorism, and from Israel's war against the Arabs.

Now, you may say, such a victory is not necessary to accomplish our political ends. We shall see.

Allowing an undefeated enemy to exist at all, when they have articulated the desire, and demonstrated the capability, to kill our women and children, is not civilized-it is effete to the point of suicidality.

There is every reason to still fear our enemies-and that's not victory, by any definition.

There is a difference between treating the cause of the disease versus treating the symptom. What we have been doing is treating the symptom while denying the cause. The cause is Islam, which is organizing guerrilla sucide groups all over the world in large numbers that will control geographical areas and populations while Bush calls it the religion of peace. It's crazy and crazy to talk about a victory. We are losing.

Islam must be confronted and completely discredited for the aggressive psychosis it is, or we have done nothing but play a little kid's war game.

...Allowing an undefeated enemy to exist at all, when they have articulated the desire, and demonstrated the capability, to kill our women and children, is not civilized-it is effete to the point of suicidality...

You are absolutely correct.
I have the biggest trouble understanding what our "leadership" (with all due sarcasm) is thinking.

Given the all too obvious results of their weak policies, I can only conclude they are incabable of thinking at all.

They can't possibly believe the Jihadis or our other wonderful mortal enemies, the Chicoms would leave them alone after destroying the rest of us.