Posted on 09/04/2003 12:33:34 AM PDT by kattracks
Edited on 05/26/2004 5:16:24 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
September 4, 2003 -- As a violent thunderstorm flickered and dimmed the lights in Florida's execution chamber, a former minister was put to death last night for murdering an abortion doctor.
Paul Hill used his last breaths to call upon right-to-lifers to continue the fight - by any means necessary.
(Excerpt) Read more at nypost.com ...
Well, shoot! If "real convictions" is all it takes to excite your admiration, then how about these fellas? They have some "real convictions", too. They've been pushed to the limit, too, by the genocide and daily humiliations of Arab and Muslim people perpetrated by the Zionist and the Crusader, and believe they have a mandate from God, and they have the courage of their convictions. They've decided to do the will of Allah and become judge, jury, executioner and martyr, for their holy and righteous cause:
Two, actually. And one wasn't an abortion doctor. I suppose that person's death is just a peripheral issue to Hill's fan club...and really, what's next? The doctor's wife and kids? Friends they have over for dinner? If they associated with the guy, killing them is okay too if they're in the way, right?
This place scares the hell out of me sometimes.
Re: Ray Moore et al- My favorite part of the whole event was showing the protestors. One of them was shouting, "Why do you hate God, you God-haters?" If someone wrote that in a movie, I'd say it was sloppy writing, but an actual human being came up with that. Classic.My favorite part was the guy who screamed at the moving crew to "get your hands off our God!". Clearly he wasn't exactly familiar with the Commandment regarding "graven images", was he?
The scary part about the whole incident is the lack of understanding people had of the issue, and the poll that showed like 90% in favor of keeping the Commandments in the courthouse. I wonder how many more Paul Hills and Eric Rudolphs there are waiting in the wings.Inevitably, one of those people would say that the Commandments aren't even religious...just good rules to live by. This proved their unfamiliarity with them, as several are quite explicitly religious. Indeed, the Constitution protects the right to violate at least three of them, and in reality more like four.
Another point you bring up intereste me as well: which version of Christianity is the United States going to follow if we adopt this as our state religion? Would it please the religious if we followed Roman Catholicism, since that is the largest denomination? Who has the right version? As a Catholic with some understanding of history, theocracies are one thing I think we all want to avoid.The Framers were extremely concerned about the idea of adopting one version of Christianity: Catholics and Protestants had fought the vicious Thirty Years War a century and a half before. Madison even pointed out that a government with the power to Establish Christianity in general would have the power to Establish one sect of same.
Half my family is Catholic (a second cousin was a Cardinal)so I'm attuned to anti-Catholic bigotry. I've heard vociferous "Christians" claim that Roman Catholics aren't even Christians, so IMO the answer is obvious. Indeed, it's not the Catholics that are typically in the forefront of campaigns for religiously inspired laws (Sunday closing laws, prohibition, school prayer, etc) , but some of the more fundamentalist Protestant sects. Indeed, the plaintiffs in the court decision banning sanctioned student-led prayer at public school extracurricular activities weren't atheists as is commonly believed. They were Catholics and Mormons.
-Eric
The enemy of my enemy is not always my friend.
Do you remember Clayton Waagner, another Army of God member? He's the guy who sent out hundreds of fake anthrax letters to abortion clinics after he escaped from jail. He said he'd kill anyone who worked for abortion clinics, including secretaries and janitors. The Army of God holds to your idea that if someone is associated with an abortion doc or abortion clinic, he or she is fair game for them.
Even the Declaration was written from a Deist viewpoint and certainly cannot be twisted to interpret the viewpoint that "God's Laws" must be enforced even upon nonbelievers.The idea behind our laws isn't that "not all" should be. It's that none should be..that all laws should have a secular purpose.Certainly not all religious laws should be forced upon non-believers. Sunday church attendance and dietary laws come to mind.
But that's not what we're talking about here. Our Republc was founded upon the notion that there exists a Natural Law that is discernible by observation and reason, and to which all are subject just as they are subject to the laws of thermodynamics. For the Founders, the right to life and freedom and the corollary rights of self defense and revolution are not mere "constructs" that can be repealed by general agreement. The Declaration embodies this notion of the Natural Moral Law, and I think it clear that the acceptance of the principles of the Declaration is the sine qua non of Americanism.When Jefferson (who was a Deist, not a Christian) mentioned the Creator in the Declaration, he did so in a very deist sense, not in a Christian sense. Indeed, even though he personally did not subscribe to "clockmaker" Deism (where the Creator made man and his surroundings and let them run on their own), the Creator references in the Declaration are not inconsistent with this idea.
Thus, I stand by my statement that nobody could deny that man is "endowed by his Creator with certain unalienable rights," including most relevantly here the "right to life" and claim ownership of the American tradition.There is however, a question of when "human life" begins. IIRC, according to Jewish beliefs it begins at birth.
I respectfully reiterate my request that somebody here offer a rational argument as to why Hill's actions are unjustifiable given the reality of the humanity of the fetus, the natural right to the use of violence in the defense of self and others, and the supremacy of the Natural Law over all man made laws, including the diktats of SCOTUS.First of all, you are stipulating points under debate.
Second of all, the Constitution does not recognize this supremacy. Indeed, it implicitly rejects it by claiming to be the supreme law of the land.
Third of all, our nation is governed by explicit written laws. Our entire structure of government is based upon the idea that the law is written, that it is the same for everyone, and that it may only be changed by means established by the law itself. With the exception of the Civil War, that compact has kept this nation thriving and prosperous for over two centuries.
Hill took it upon himself to violate that compact. His crime was premeditated murder. His premeditation was based upon dangerous premises: that his religious beliefs were more important than our most basic law and that he was authorized to act upon same. In this way he was no different than a jihad-inspired Muslim terrorist, and he deserved the precise same fate.
-Eric
Two, actually. And one wasn't an abortion doctor. I suppose that person's death is just a peripheral issue to Hill's fan club...and really, what's next? The doctor's wife and kids? Friends they have over for dinner? If they associated with the guy, killing them is okay too if they're in the way, right?Then there's Eric Rudolph, who if indeed is guilty (as it most certainly appears) did a lot more than threaten...and apparently expanded the idea of "offensive to God" to public celebrations at the Olympics.Do you remember Clayton Waagner, another Army of God member? He's the guy who sent out hundreds of fake anthrax letters to abortion clinics after he escaped from jail. He said he'd kill anyone who worked for abortion clinics, including secretaries and janitors. The Army of God holds to your idea that if someone is associated with an abortion doc or abortion clinic, he or she is fair game for them.
-Eric
You must not be a native born from Texas ...
Yes. Hill had a trial, was found guilty and sentenced to death by a jury. The people he shot were not granted that same trial. Hill decided he was judge, jury and executioner.
After much research I have determined that the original Hebrew text of the Bible says "Thou shalt not murder", as opposed to "Thou shalt not kill"
The difference may seem semantical, but there is wrongfull murder, with intent and malice, murder in the commission of warfare, accidental murder, and the intentional, and justified murder to protect another life.
We can all agree that Hill murdered another human, the only question is whether or not that murder was justified. To answer this question truthfully, puts most all of us in an uncomfortable position because there really is no middle ground.
If you believe that life begins at conception and I don't see how anyone could objectively say otherwise, then Hill's actions, were morally justified. Notice I didn't say legally justified. The fact that the state sanctions the murder of innocents under the color of law has little to do with this. Only if you believe that the state is infallible, do you have a case to vilify and execute Hill for stopping the wholesale slaughter of innocent children.
Another poster has rightfully chastized the rest of us who believe that this is allowed to occur due to our inaction and he rightfully points out that we will be held accountable before God for it. To take such action, in the face of his own execution for it takes a kind of courage that most of us will never have. And more's the pity.
You don't understand that they are. It's simply that some murder is justified.
Since Hill obviously knew that he would have to answer to God for his actions I don't think he was assuming God's place.
God instructs us that in earthly matters, we are our brothers keeper, and I think that Hill was assuming that role. Hill rightly thought that abortion was no less than unjustified murder, and since it is 'legal' he couldn't work within the system to stop it.
He did the only thing his beliefs left to him.
No. They murdered innocents under the color of an apostate "religion". They are no more justified that the abortion butchers.
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