The Ten Commandments Debate (Federal Judiciary Tyranny Alert!)

religious icon= NOT

Moore tried to slip God into government

God was in American government and jurisprudence from the beginning, ref., Declaration of Independence, Paris Peace Treaty, First Inaugural Address of George Washington, etc., etc.

For example, Christmas nativity scenes. As long as they're not exclusive.

Christmas, by definition - "the annual festival of the Christian church commemorating Jesus' birth [i.e., 'nativity']" - is very exclusive. The word, like our Constitution, has been bastardized, but the original meaning of both remains the same.

Because it was only put up for historical reasons, and was never justified as a religious basis for the laws in Chester county, it was allowed to stay.

To deny that the Ten Commandments have a religious origin (as well as American historical significance) is a lie. For Roy Moore to deny that they have religious significance to him personally (as well as significance in American and Alabamian jurisprudence) would be a lie. For Moore to have framed his argument on a purely historical basis would be to deny his faith, the expression of which (as well as free speech in many forms) the First Amendment was designed to protect.

When does a court Order brek down? If the (in)Justices ordered the murder of Judge Moore, would they have followed it?

Thanks for the link. I'll take a look at it.

Both are icons in a larger sense: when you think of the 10c's, they invoke a deep resonance in your mind. A picture of them, a sentence containing the phrase "10 commandments," or a monument all strike a chord in your mind. This is what I meant by icon.

.30, you're just the kind of person Moore was targetting. You believe strongly, have deep convictions, and are familiar with the religiousity of our founding fathers. You hear a lot of technical jargon and then out of the blue, the monument is being removed! Why, you say? How can this be? It's due to the precise nature of the legal language Moore used. He made some statements about what the monument meant to the people of Alabama that exceeded his authority, but most people didn't hear that part because they felt their interests were being served by the monument's presence in his courthouse. The majority of Christians probably appreciated Moore's actions in bringing the monument. He's every bit as sophisticated as you think, so he knew what he was doing. When someone challenged him, he wasn't being forced to justify his actions and his comments because they were religious. It was because he had tried to apply the meaning of the monument too broadly to the state, his court, and his judicial actions. However, he has persuaded you personally that all Christians across America have been insulted by the removal of the *icon* from the courthouse. Very effective, and also dangerous. The 10c's got removed because of the fine print that Moore uttered. But a lot of Christians aren't hearing the fine print, or if they did, they ignore what it means to other Americans in an undemocratic way.

>>>> God was in American government and jurisprudence from the beginning, ...

Not a specific God, not in our legally-binding founding documents. And the first amendment in the bill of rights makes it clear that this was both a forseen issue (they knew we'd be arguing if the Catholic or the Protestant religions would prevail, or if we would try to call ourselves "Christians" given the presence of Jews and other faiths). Discussion of Christianity outside the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence is personal on the part of the founder in question.

>>>> Christmas, by definition - "the annual festival of the Christian church commemorating Jesus' birth [i.e., 'nativity']" - is very exclusive.

You're reaching a couple of conclusions here a bit too quickly. It's an easy mistake to take what these types of symbols mean to you personally, and apply the interpretation to others, bypassing a number of external steps that would have to happen for that to be so. Symbols mean different things to different people, and we all accept that. In the case of the Nativity, you see what your religion states about it. I don't. But like I do, you also see a historically significant and culturally meaningful symbol. So we share some reactions but not all. That you believe a doctrine that excludes others does not make the display of your doctrinal symbols an affront to me! This is one of the problems with some of the worst anti-Christian legal cases trotted out on Christian radio and TV -- someone didn't want to be reminded of Christianity, so an evangelical Christian was sued, etc... The display of your religious symbols does not force me to adhere to the conlusions you reach in your mind. This is similar reasoning to why the Chester county 10c's got to stay. It's also the kernel of religious tolerance non-Christians and Christians who want absolute separation of Church and state must have for their fundamentalist conservative Christian fellow citizens.

How well schooled are you in math & physics?