Lines blur as death penalty, abortion collide

Pensacola News Journal ^ | 8/24/03 | Troy Moon

[madprof98]

The anti-abortion governor refuses to halt the execution of Paul Hill, sentenced to death for the murder of a doctor who sometimes performed abortions and the murder of the doctor`s escort.

The head of a national group against abortion has volunteered to "pull the switch" and send Hill to his death. Another abortion-opposition group, Florida Right To Life, says Hill forfeited his right to live.

[madprof98]

"We`ve broadened our coalition in this case to include some in the pro-life movement," said Abe Bonowitz, director of Floridians for Alternatives to the Death Penalty.

These people put out a variety of "talking points" for their members to use in explaining their defense of the killer they most obviously loathe. I don't recall any of them that addressed the possibility that killing is just plain wrong. Where killing is concerned, it seems there are few people who draw the line altogether.

[Polycarp]

Abortion is intrinsically evil.

Capital punishment is not.

Lots of folks sure are screwed up on these very simple concepts.

[irishtenor]

***"I`m pro-choice, but I don`t believe in the death penalty," said Laura Dyson, 24, of Pensacola. "I think it`s barbaric, like we`re out for blood. Civilized societies shouldn`t kill anyone." *** Can't she see how idoitic it is to believe that it is ok to kill a child growing inside a woman, but it is wrong to kill a murderer.

[yooper]

Somethin's not adding up here. A group against abortion is volunteering to pull the switch on a guy who whacked an abortionist? OK, It's Friday night and I've had a few, but I'm still confused. Oh yeah, and this little gem:

The abortion issue is explosive - seven people have been killed over it...

Didn't they count the babies?

[yooper]

Has Florida upgraded that chair yet? It must suck to be on death row knowing that an underamped unit which was installed when your grandfather was a boy is still waiting for you in 2003.

[Polycarp]

There is a simple test anyone can apply to the morality of an act. When someone who calls themself a Christian tells me that a woman should have the right to choose, that God is Merciful and wouldn't force a woman to carry a child she did not want, or that was a result of rape or incest, implying the act is somehow NOT immoral, I ask them a simple question:

"Can YOU picture Jesus Christ dressed in surgical garb, at an abortion clinic, ripping a baby piece by piece from a woman's womb?!? Is that Merciful? Would Jesus Christ EVER commit such a crime?"

The answer is obvious to us and to pro-abortion men and women.

Likewise, can anyone imagine Jesus Christ dressed in fatigues and black face, hiding in bushes behind an abortionist's home, clutching a high powered rifle, waiting for an opportunity to take the life of that abortionist? Can anyone imagine HIM killing an abortionist who would then die unrepentant in his sin, damned eternally to Hell?

No. The answer is obvious. EVERY man, no matter how vile his crime, must have an opportunity to repent and be saved. Jesus would never hide in the bushes with a rifle to take the life of a sinner.

Perfect justice exists ONLY in Heaven. Due to Original Sin, we will NEVER have Perfect Justice here on earth. An anti-abortion activist that resorts to violence is not acting in the way of the Lord. Period.

On the other hand, a large percentage of abortuary clinic bombings and arsons happen not at the hands of protesters but by the hands of clinic owners themselves, their petty rivals, and even boyfriends whose child was killed in the womb by the abortionist.

Likewise, many of the murders of abortionists were a result not of "anti-abortion violence" but of the consequences of the debased immoral lives abortionists live. Here's a few examples from a Wanderer article of December 10, 1998:

Among some of the more grisly-though not exactly atypical-deaths of prominent abortionists are these few from the files of the Pro-Life Action League in Chicago, provided to The Wanderer for this report:


*San Diego abortion clinic director, militant radical feminist, and lesbian Deborah Fleming, 35, shot herself in the head on May 26th, 1990 in a motel room in Yuma, Ariz. She was, apparently, distraught over her inability to conceive a child.

*Abortionist Lynn D. Weller of Kansas City was shot to death in his home in September, 1973 by two masked gunmen, hired by rival abortionist Dr. William Carlos, who was angry that Weller was having an affair with his ex-wife.

*Notorious Chicago abortion mill owner Kenneth Yellen literally died in the gutter after his gangland-style execution in November, 1979: five shots in the head as he walked to work. Police discovered that Yellen-who also was involved in the gambling, prostitution, and pornography- businesses -was more than $1 million in debt.

*George Patterson, who operated abortion mills in Alabama and Florida, was gunned down outside a porn theater in downtown Mobile in august, 1993, where he was a regular customer.

We must remember that there is Perfect Justice in Heaven for both baby killers and baby killer killers.

[mdittmar]

It ain't brain surgery,an innocent life sucked down a sink vs. a person guilty of murder.

I see no "bluring of lines" at all.

[thoughtomator]

It is foolish for any nation that wants to remain free to authorize their government to kill its own citizens, under any circumstances, imho. Responsible people will not always be in charge.

[thoughtomator]

I can't see Jesus lethally injecting a strapped-down prisoner or pulling the switch of an electric chair, either.

[Polycarp]

Whether it is foolish is another debate altogether. I simply commented on its relative morality.

Old thread: Is Opposition to Capital Punishment Part of the Culture of Life? Is the Death Penalty Part of the Culture of Death?

[Clint Williams]

it`s sometimes hard to know who is on which side.

Count me as one of those "opposed to the killing," (I detest this term, btw) on all counts. And though I know I'll take heat for this, please hear me out.

In this forum I don't think I need to discuss my opposition to abortion. If nothing else, I did that a couple of days ago.

But my opposition to the death penalty under the current practice within the American judicial system is based on one point, and one point only: The system seems to be rather poor at determining guilt. One has to look no further than a situation just a few miles from me where innocent people were convicted of crimes that many think should be punished by death (or worse), to understand that our (politicized) judiciary is not operating the way we are taught that it does. Innocent people do wind up in prison. And on death row -- there are enough news items lately of people on death row exonerated through DNA evidence.

The question I have is: We have a process (the judicial system) that is clearly (at least to me) not doing doing its job -- why do we not have in place a mechanism for testing, measuring, evaluating and correcting that system? Feed a few, um, pre-configured, cases into it, observe the process and correct it? Many automobiles sold today have this kind of mechanism built in; it's the reason why required tuneups are rather infrequent, compared to a decade or more ago.

Yah, I know some of you will come back with "some of them might have been guilty", and there may even be some who will claim they were all guilty. Save your breath, because I'll just chalk you up as being in the crowd who thinks it's better that 10 innocents be imprisoned than that one guilty one goes free.

[Polycarp]

I can't see Jesus lethally injecting a strapped-down prisoner or pulling the switch of an electric chair, either.

Matthew 21:19 Seeing a lone fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it except leaves only; and He said to it, "No longer shall there ever be any fruit from you." And at once the fig tree withered.

Acts 5 1 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet. 3Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God." 5When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened.

[thoughtomator]

I'm not too sure on the morality of deliberately killing a prisoner, even one convicted of a heinous crime. It is cowardly to kill someone who is at your mercy. Killing to stop a crime in progress I can understand; it comes down to one life vs. another. But purposeful killing of a captive is murder by definition, and I believe it also violates the 8th Amendment, in that no punishment could be more excessive.

[thoughtomator]

Screw what Matthew might have to say. God commanded unto us "Thou shall not murder," and meant it.

[thoughtomator]

Sorry that was rude. But nothing any prophet or apostle might have to say is relevant in the face of God's unmistakable command.

[Polycarp]

But purposeful killing of a captive is murder by definition

No, not by definition. There is a distinction:

Main Entry: ¹mur·der
Pronunciation: 'm&r-d&r
Function: noun
Etymology: partly from Middle English murther, from Old English morthor; partly from Middle English murdre, from Old French, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English morthor; akin to Old High German mord murder, Latin mort-, mors death, mori to die, mortuus dead, Greek brotos mortal
Date: before 12th century
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought
2 a : something very difficult or dangerous <the traffic was murder> b : something outrageous or blameworthy <getting away with murder>

Main Entry: ¹kill
Pronunciation: 'kil
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, perhaps from (assumed) Old English cyllan; akin to Old English cwellan to kill -- more at QUELL
Date: 14th century
transitive senses
1 a : to deprive of life b (1) : to slaughter (as a hog) for food (2) : to convert a food animal into (a kind of meat) by slaughtering
2 a : to put an end to <kill competition> b : DEFEAT, VETO <killed the amendment> c : to mark for omission; also : DELETE
3 a : to destroy the vital or essential quality of <killed the pain with drugs> b : to cause to stop <kill the motor> c : to check the flow of current through
4 : to make a markedly favorable impression on <she killed the audience>
5 : to get through uneventfully <kill time>; also : to get through (the time of a penalty) without being scored on <kill a penalty>
6 a : to cause extreme pain to b : to tire almost to the point of collapse
7 : to hit (a shot) so hard in various games that a return is impossible
8 : to consume (as a drink) totally
intransitive senses
1 : to deprive one of life
2 : to make a markedly favorable impression <was dressed to kill>
synonyms KILL, SLAY, MURDER, ASSASSINATE, DISPATCH, EXECUTE mean to deprive of life. KILL merely states the fact of death caused by an agency in any manner <killed in an accident> <frost killed the plants>. SLAY is a chiefly literary term implying deliberateness and violence but not necessarily motive <slew thousands of the Philistines>. MURDER specifically implies stealth and motive and premeditation and therefore full moral responsibility <convicted of murdering a rival>. ASSASSINATE applies to deliberate killing openly or secretly often for political motives <terrorists assassinated the Senator>. DISPATCH stresses quickness and directness in putting to death <dispatched the sentry with one bullet>. EXECUTE stresses putting to death as a legal penalty <executed by lethal gas>.

[Polycarp]

Screw what Matthew might have to say. God commanded unto us "Thou shall not murder," and meant it.

Sorry that was rude. But nothing any prophet or apostle might have to say is relevant in the face of God's unmistakable command.

See the comments in GREEN below from Pope John Paul II, but read them in the context of the rest of the quotes:

	Notable quotations from Catholic social teaching on the theme of Capital Punishment
	In this context we have to place the problem of the death penalty. In the church and civil society there is a growing tendency to apply it in a very limited way or to abolish it completely. This problem should be viewed in the context of a penal justice ever more in line with the dignity of the human person and God's plan for humanity and society. The violation of personal and societal rights must be adequately punished as a condition for the offender to regain the exercise of his or her freedom. In this way the public order is defended, public safety is ensured, and the offender is offered an incentive to change and be rehabilitated.   The Gospel of Life (Donders translation), #56
	The nature and extent of the punishment ought not to go to the extreme of executing the offender, except in cases of absolute necessity: in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today, however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare if not practically nonexistent.  The Gospel of Life (Donders translation), #56
	Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility. Catechism of the Catholic Church, #2265
	The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people's rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and the duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people's safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party. Catechism of the Catholic Church, #2266
	Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor. If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity with the dignity of the human person Catechism of the Catholic Church, #2267

[thoughtomator]

Sounds then that the Catholic doctrine is perfectly in agreement with my assessment. Unless it is absolutely necessary it should not be done.

[Polycarp]

Yes.

[Polycarp]

Sounds then that the Catholic doctrine is perfectly in agreement with my assessment. Unless it is absolutely necessary it should not be done.

Yes, but with a caveat: the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

In other words, capital punishment is NOT intrinsically evil.

If one desires to oppose it as a matter of social justice, that is fine.

But there is no doctrinal condemnation of capital punishment. Doctrinally, a Catholic MUST oppose abortion as a crime that cries out to Heaven for vengence and is intrinsically evil!

But a Catholic can in good conscience support recourse to the death penalty, and not step out of obedience to doctrinal teachings of Christianity.