Posted on 08/29/2003 5:24:08 PM PDT by Eala
Kat and I just received the Dell Inspiron 5100 notebook we ordered from Dell Canada. We quickly ran across problems.
I pushed the power button to turn on computer. I got the Dell POST screen, then a screen from Dell (Photo):
SOFTWARE LICENSES
- Before using your computer, read all of the software license agreements that came with each program that you ordered. There may be several agreements to examine. To comply with the terms and conditions of the software license agreements, you must consider any CD or diskette set of Dell-installed software as BACKUP copies of the software installed on your computer's hard-disk drive.
- If you did not order Dell-installed software for this computer, or if you do not accept all the terms of the licenses, please call the customer assistance telephone number listed in your system documentation.
Press any key on the keyboard to indicate that you have read all of the software licenses and agree to their terms.
Be Direct TM
Dell TM
www.dell.com
But there are no license agreements in the box that the computer came in. [There are some shrinkwrapped CD containers, but the "Terms and Conditions of Sale (CANADA)" that came with the invoice says:
"7. Software. All software is provided subject to the license agreement that is part of the package. Customer agrees that it will be bound by the license agreement once the package is opened or its seal is broken. Dell does not warrant any software under this Agreement. Warranties, if any, for the software are contained in the license agreement that governs its purchase and use."
I've never agreed to those Terms and Conditions, to my knowledge, but I assume they think they're enforceable, so I can't open up the shrinkwrap to see if the license agreements are in there, without automatically agreeing to them.]
So I called the only Dell number I could find on my documentation (1-800-847-4096) and spoke to a customer support representative. I told her what was on the screen, and told her I couldn't find the license agreements I'm required to read and agree to before pressing any key.
She put me on hold while she looked into where the license agreements might be, and eventually transferred me to technical support. The tech support agent told me her database was down, so she couldn't look up anything at all (I hadn't even told her what the problem was yet), and I'd have to call back in an hour.
I call back, and speak to a tech support woman. She says: "press Tab." I explain that I can't without saying I've read and agreed to documents I don't have. She says "press page down". Same problem. She says "scroll down". I explain it's not a Windows screen. She says "insert any Dell-shipped CD". I exlpain the problem of opening the CD packaging.
She insists I have to press a key. I ask her if she really means that I have to agree to the licenses before it's at all possible that i've read them. She says "yes". I explain that that's not acceptable, and ask for her supervisor.
Her supervisor insists it's a Customer Care issue, and not tech support, and that there's nothing he can do. He can't explain why they sent me to him. He enters my info into the call log databse, and I go to call back Customer Care.
So back into the hold queue I go.
I'm finally connected to a Customer Care representative. [Pretty much each sentence in the following was interspersed with long, long times on hold.]
She looked up the call log to get the background info. She insists she doesn't have copies of the agreements, and that I'm supposed to go online and look them up myself. (?!) She says to use a public computer if I have to. I ask how to know what companies have software on my disk. She goes away for a bit, and says she doesn't have that information, and there's nothing they can do. [And there's no supervisor available.] She asks why I don't want to agree to the license. I explain I haven't *seen* it. She says "it just says you won't copyright any of the files". I ignore the mistake, and explain that licensing agreements are long, long documents that say much more than that, and that anyway, the screen says that I have to have *read* it.
Eventually she does manage to connect me to Alan Burley (Manager, Customer Service).
He said he installs things all the time without reading the license agreements. He says I should just do that. I ask if he's really telling me to lie and to agree to legal documents I haven't seen. He says I don't have to, but the only thing he can do is take the computer back. He says that it's the first time this issue has escalated. He does manage to tell me what software is on the system, and says I need to go to those companies' websites to get their agreements. [Never mind that I need the OEM version and that's unlikely to be there.] I ask _him_ what if this was my first computer. He said I would have to go to a library or a friend's house. He really couldn't send me the agreements that Dell insists I read and agree to before using the computer.
He said he couldn't give me his phone number or mailing address, and that he didn't have a boss who could talk to me.
So we've got nothing left to do but send it back. He says he'll send waybills, and will refund the cost of the computer, including the original shipping charge, and won't charge a restocking fee. We will have to pay for the shipping back to the Oakville depot. I figured we could just run it by there ourselves (it's not too far), but he said that that's not possible. (I don't understand why. We'll probably try, anyway.)
It's crazy that it came to this. If they had said *anything* reasonable, we would have been happy to just install Linux on the thing and be done with it. But they were saying that anyone who uses a Dell laptop (with this startup screen) *has* to just lie about having read the licenses, and just blindly agree to them. That's unacceptable enough that it's going back.
It's also interesting to note that everyone except Mr. Burley assumed that I was talking about a Microsoft screen which included the Windows EULA, until I told them otherwise. This was a Dell screen, with no EULA, and I'm surprised that none of these people were aware of its existence.
After all this, we *did* try to boot off a Linux install CD. That just took us to the same screen as before. So we had to go into the BIOS so that it would try to boot off the CD before the hard disk, but after we did that, Windows started to boot, without having displayed the "press a key to agree" screen. We quickly powered the machine down before Windows started. [Though now you no longer get the "press a key to agree" screen when you turn it on, even with the BIOS settings back the way they were.]
This took from around 3pm to around 8:30pm today. I'm just bewildered that Dell corporate policy is that users need to lie to use their new laptops, and to agree to legal agreements that it's completely impossible to have read. This is the next level above "click-through" licenses. Now, they figure no one reads the EULAs anyway, so why bother even providing a copy?
Trust me, this works the best.
You're a trooper, I don't know anyone who reads or cares about the fine print in licensing, because it's taken for granted that we get screwed.
My problem with Dell is not those agreements, because I am a crank. When I buy something, I absolutely own it, and am not interested in listening to any legal fantasies to the contrary. My property, My Laws.
No, the issue I have with Dell is their firewall-pounding spyware, SUPPORT.EXE, and I feel strongly enough about it to never buy another.
BTW, folks, this is my first post running LINUX!
One machine totally stripped of MS, six more to go.
My previous work laptop was a Dell and even though the driver support for Win2K (it came with Win98) was, well, mediocre, I liked it well enough. But sadly, the mega-corporation that recently bought my employer has upgraded all our machines with cheap Compaqs -- big (too big to use in airline steerage class) and heavy. The one I liked most was a Toshiba -- for its keyboard.
You wasted your time from around 3pm to around 8:30pm today.
You wouldn't be able to comprehend the hidden meaning of the agreement anyway. A roomful of Philadelphia lawyers would have a constitutional convention over its interpretation. The agreement is there for Dell's protection, not yours. They are bound by limits in the Uniform Commercial Code that gives you certain protections. Dell has to compete with other companies who claim to have better services. Why waste your time? The computer will be obsolete in three to four years anyways.
Congratulations! Which distro and version? My primary Internet machine has been a RedHat system of one version or another for, uh, well, years now... I hate the "one and only one desktop" that Windows forces on you.
Anyway, after 4 days of trying to get Unix to work on the system, I finally had enough. I called them to get an RMA to ship it back. I was informed that I would get a refund, minus the original shipping charge, and minus the cost of the Windows OS!I explained that I had never used Windows, had never even booted the computer to Windows, that I had never opened the Windows software package that shipped with the system. I was told that it didn't matter. By starting the computer, I had agreed to the MS license agreement. I insisted that's not possible, if the agreement was never presented to me. The fact is that I booted to a Unix floppy disk, and wiped the system in order to install Unix before it had ever even attempted to boot to Windows. They told me it didn't matter, and I got the same story all the way up the food chain in management.
Well, to make a really long story even longer, I finally got American Express involved, and told them about what was happening, and I refused to pay for anything. They agreed that I was being treated unfairly, and really worked things out for me. While I was originally willing to pay the shipping costs both ways, thanks to AMEX, I got a full refund of the original shipping, as well as the Windows95.
Believe me, YOU aren't being screwed by those damn license agreements. Have you ever tried to read one? Jeez! For instance, when you install MS Windows 2000 Server, you have to hit the page down about 20 times, and it even lapses into French for our Canadian friends! And it's a good thing that they insist that they're only licensing the software to you to use, not selling it... By doing that, they can make the outrageous claims that pretty much say that it might work, and it might only do a little bit of what they say it's supposed to do, and that it's not their fault if it doesn't work and that you will never hold them responsible for anything... etc... If they were to try to "sell" a product like that, state AGs would be all over them for marketing and advertising violations.
Mark
I'm shocked to be saying this, but if I can get all the network monitoring and management apps I need to work on an i-Book or a Powerbook, I'll be switching... I made the mistake of getting a Dell Inspiron (not really a mistake, but I needed a DVD-ROM, and at the time Latitudes weren't available with them). The problem was that the OS is WinXP (WindowsME was the option... No official Dell support for Linux, Win2K or Win98), and it's just unstable as hell, and most of my network apps (like Sniffer) won't work under XP. So I had to use Partition Magic and do my best to get Win98 drivers to work, as well as getting Linux on it...
A buddy of mine picked up an i-Book 700, and I was astonished. The damn thing is every bit as fast as a 2GHz P-4! Maybe even faster.
So I may be going over to "the dark side."
Mark
To the abyss with Windows. XP did me a favor in that it made me get off my tail and FINALLY try Linux. I got Red Hat 9. It came yesterday, I read the book at bedtime, and it _slid_ into the machine (An old spare P3/733). I carefully noted all my hardware and network settings and Ethernet MAc, etc..etc.. but it was TOTALLY not needed. Everything set itself up, configured my WAN connections, and the LAN as well.
All I did was feed it CDROMs and GLOAT!
And it has ***EVERYTHING***, Office suite, three different ways of accessing newsgroups, Mozilla, its own FTP, etc..etc...there is just nothing lef to buy or do.
Next comes my laptop, then the Dell, and eventually the whole house will be clean of bloated spyware.
!!!!ESCAPE FROM REDMOND!!!! Courtesy of a penguin...hahaha.
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