Girls get extra school help while boys get Ritalin

USA Today/Yahoo ^ | 8/29/03 | USA Today - Staff

[annyokie]

You know, for someone who has chosen the screen name beginning with "Dr", you are quite embarassing to read and rude, as well.

Disagree, fine. To continually denegrate the intelligence of someone, in this instance happygrl, is pathetic.

[happygrl]

No, I am not the one who began by hurling invective. I am still waiting for a reasoned response to the points I raised, instead of the name calling.

I still think that something I said hit home in a painful way.

[WOSG]

Ahem, the problem is that your original comments were factually wrong.

It is *not* easier for men than women to get non-college jobs and careers and 'make a living' that way. Indeed, the trend has been a regression in standard of living for those NOT getting a college degree, with MEN BEING HIT HARDER THAN WOMEN:


http://www.aypf.org/pressreleases/pr18.htm

"
Employment and Wages: Down and Unpromising. The critical transition from school to the workplace has become more painful than a decade ago. Moving to permanent employment is taking longer. Young workers who do not go on to college or career training are experiencing longer periods of unemployment and are relying more than ever on part-time, dead end jobs. Moreover, their tenure in jobs is shorter and less stable.

Even in a booming economy, full- and part-time employment rates among "The Forgotten Half" were actually lower in 1997 than in 1989. And for minority youth, full-time employment is 20 to 30 percent lower than their white counterparts. Overall, inflation-adjusted earnings for 20-24 year-old male workers fell by one-third, while young women were earning 16.5 percent less. In March 1997, more than one-fourth of out-of-school young adults who were working full-time were earning less than the poverty line income standard of just over $16,000 annually for a family of four.
"

This trend of hitting men harder than women is consistent over time ...

Male wages from 1989 versus female wages 1989-1994.

http://www.prospect.org/tap_images/print/V6/images/23mishf1.gif


Note how the median male compensation is trailing the median - females are getting wage increases, men are not:
http://www.prospect.org/tap_images/print/V6/images/23mishf2.gif

We have had 3 decades of this: Relentless pressure on the wages and compensation of MEN especially in blue collar and industrial/manufacturing jobs. And is it not helped of course by policies that favor women over men in hiring, as often happens in many companies under the guise of AA. Men cannot readily fall back on the female alternative of finding a man be the breadwinner, aka 'mrs' degree. When you look at total *family* income, women have it better than men at any given educational attainment level.

Given this, the idea that men can forgo College more readily than women should be consigned to the dustbin of "Bad Advice". It just aint so.

[happygrl]

Then I stand corrected.

HOWEVER, this is a new trend, in that for many years, until manufacturing and other blue collar vocations were transferred out of the country, traditional "women's work", "pinkcollar" jobs were far less renumerative than male jobs. It is the loss of those blue collar jobs as much as an improvement in the wages of non-degreed women, that has resulted in this trend.

It is a serious situation for any non-skilled, non-degreed worker of either sex.

[tortoise]

The 4.0 academic high achiever person excels at thinking, ie has high IQ, likes competition, and likes a pat-on-the-back for doing work; they've internalized high expectations; and they are intellectually curious, ie they want to learn.

If only this were actually true. All that was required to get a 4.0 GPA was to actually do all the work, something any sufficiently motivated chimp can do. It is not really an indicator of high IQ or intelligence or even a particular desire to learn. So in short, a high GPA pretty much means that you have an average intelligence and are really, really good at always doing what you are told to do -- that really is the only qualities it actually measures. Even in the AP and advanced classes, the bar isn't set high enough to filter for genuinely superior intellectual capacity. None of the classes were actually difficult enough, and I went to one of the very best high schools in the country. I neither need nor want a "pat on the back" for doing work that anyone could do; it is a pretty shallow achievement and I'm not that needy.

In other words, GPA doesn't measure what you are claiming it measures. I am a polymath with very good credentials in a number of fields, ironically not the field of engineering that I actually went to the uni for (which I basically haven't touched since leaving the uni). I was rural white trash with a six sigma IQ (per the State of Washington) who was consuming a broad range of esoteric mathematics and science texts before I was even in high school. In other words, by the time I was in high school, I was studying things that I wouldn't normally have seen outside of graduate level classes at the uni. When one field dried up, I diversified into other fields of interest. Learning new things is one of my few real pleasures in life. Fortunately, after I left school the stuff I actually burned time on was actually judged by its own merits and I did very well indeed.

So yeah, I wasted a lot of time when I should have been doing my homework reading and writing things I doubt my teachers would have been able to understand. And you wonder why I got a 2.4 GPA? A lot of homework takes time, even when it is not intellectually challenging.

It may look like a lack of focus, but it is really just a lack of focus on useless work that other people want me to do for no particularly good reason. I focus just fine when there is a measurable benefit to doing the things I'm doing, but a 4.0 GPA is nigh worthless as a benefit because I never got satisfaction from grades for their own sake. There are plenty of studies that show that most of the really successful people in the world had surprisingly modest GPAs, whereas most of the 4.0 GPA types end up firmly in the middle of the road on average when it comes to success. Not that I care either way.

[Alex Murphy]

Thanks for the ping, Dr Ecks. This is extremely timely for me, in ways you don't know :)

[WOSG]

If what you say is so, you are quite the exception, not the rule. Most C students I knew in high school were just 25 watters.

"Even in the AP and advanced classes, the bar isn't set high enough to filter for genuinely superior intellectual capacity. " Here's your error, it's not trying to 'filter' anything and it's not about 'capacity' - it's trying to impart knowledge and skills, and yes, effort and determination of average intelligence can fill the gap against a smarter but lazier student (which was me back then, school and homework and tests were all pretty easy for me, and I dont recall making any real effort until University). I was proud of my 5 in AP Physics and Chemisty and English and US History, not because I was 'smart', but because I saved a ton of College tuition and got practically a year of schooling shaved off due to it, I was able to go directly to higher level courses in University. That was MY way of getting around the 'chimp factor'. I also had a 'self-learning' geometry class in 10th grade, did it in 1/2 the year, then took another course the other 1/2 year with a friend.

I still dont understand why if you were "consuming a broad range of esoteric mathematics and science texts before I was even in high school" that you didnt take advantage of the opportunity right in front of you and learn more in school or graduate early to escape. Maybe you hadnt internalized the algorithm "get good grades, go to elite college, succeed in world"? I had my own esoteric interests - stuff like wargaming and reading National Review and Ayn Rand as a teenager - but that didnt stop me from turning my brain on in class.

To each his own - but here you make my point ...

"So yeah, I wasted a lot of time when I should have been doing my homework reading and writing things I doubt my teachers would have been able to understand." uh huh, teachers even in "one of the very best high schools" are dummies too feeble to understand a smart 15-year-olds thoughts - see what I mean about "Prima Donna" factor??
You have a desire to see yourself as better and different, and so are de-valuing these other folks and other ways of approaching and doing things.

[WOSG]

Does more education pay? Yes it does; here's a census report on the subject:

http://psy.ucsd.edu/~hflowe/p23-210.pdf

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You're obviously reading selectively. It was happygal who said "you are a sad and pathetic _______."

I'm sure she meant to fill in the blank with "sweetheart."

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Thanks for the facts -- something sorely lacking on the "who cares if boys are educated" side.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I still think something I said hit home in a painful way.

Congratulations. You are correct. To read your suggestions that my sons should content themselves with trade employment while girls with lower grades and SAT scores head to college is painfully callous and smug.

Having a college degree has been more essential for a woman to support herself than it has been for a man.

When asked, you offered no back-up for that ridiculous statement. What world do you live in?

The problem with today's "feminists" is that they are NOT feminists. They want all the advantages and perks of the job or education without doing the work, simply because they're women. That's not the feminism of Betty Friedan or Germaine Greer. (Do you even know those names?)

I hope you and every other young woman without children on these threads who speak so glibly about young men's futures will one day have your own children.

And I hope you remember this conversation. And I hope things are better for your children -- boys and girls.

[luckystarmom]

I didn't take the comment about males becoming tradesmen was a joke, and I took offense to that remark.

[annyokie]

Can you stop it? I have three sons, one currently in the USN. (That's Navy, in case you don't know.)

My middle son wishes to become a doctor and has the foresight to know he has no bedside manner and must elect to be a surgeon or a neurologist.

There is nothing wrong with learning a trade. I'd have saved thousands of dollars if my ex knew how to unplug a drain or drive a nail.

I can use power tools better than that yutz and make a better living, too.

Oh and BTW, I financed my college on my own: no parents.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Can you stop it?

The debate elevates once again.

[Pro-Bush]

Having a college degree has been more essential for a woman to support herself than it has been for a man to make a well-renumerated living.

What a load of crap. Your bias towards men comes out loud and clear. I can't believe you made that statement.

[Pro-Bush]

Men have to stand up, stop takeing ritilin, and just protest the Pussification of america. Pardon my filthy french.

Well said.

[Paul C. Jesup]

Sorry, but I don't "do" P.C. comments.

Your last comment was P.C.

Women have more options, beyond college degrees, in this country than men.

[afraidfortherepublic]

Congratulations. Are you still pursuing a career in engineering?

[LWalk18]

Having a college degree has been more essential for a woman to support herself than it has been for a man to make a well-renumerated living. What a load of crap. Your bias towards men comes out loud and clear. I can't believe you made that statement.

What I think she meant was that most traditional female or "pink collar" jobs, such as teaching, nursing, and social work, tend to require a college degree, as opposed to traditionally male construction or other trades. The traditional job options for a young man without a college degree were higher than those of a young woman. Of course, this is less and less true today, but I don't understand why her comment was considered offensive.

[ladyjane]

Your son could consider becoming a pathologist. It's a perfect field for someone who is very smart, enjoys problem solving and doesn't want to get into the bedside thing. Pays much better than many of the other specialties.