William Rehnquist totally destroys "Separation of Church and State" myth

http://www.belcherfoundation.org/wallace_v_jaffree_dissent.htm ^ | William Rehnquist

[GulliverSwift]

This "case" will be closed when you quit posting revisionist history. Of course, you could always "give it a rest", yourself.

You know that tpaine will never drop his wrong-headed obsession. He takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin', blissfully unaware of the facts.

BTW, he's not posting any revisionist history since he never cites any contemporaneous documents, only his unreliable and uncredentialed interpretation of them.

Others of his opinion, like Luis Gonzalez, are not so immature. They actually have read some things and post actual quotations

[tpaine]

This "case" will be closed when you quit posting revisionist history
-pf-


"Our nation had censorship from the beginning at the federal, state and local levels."

Help me! -- I can't stop posting this crap!

[tpaine]

Others of his opinion, like Luis Gonzalez, are not so immature. They actually have read some things and post actual quotations
81 -Gullible Swifty-


Don't ferget roscoe, FR's king of the inane quote.

[Aeronaut]

John, I suggest you ping one or more of your lists.

[MissAmericanPie]

"And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort, which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion, which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries."--"

Perhaps Jefferson should hop out of his grave and explain how not allowing students to pray before a sports event, or at their comensements, leads to anything but quiet?

For it surely provides no comfort to the majority of citizens.

[Held_to_Ransom]

That kali Sacred site thing sounds like the perfect deal to protect the business of casino's on Indian land. No doubt Davis is thinking of cutting in on Las Vegas. After all, if Casino's are legalized in Kali, then politicians can use the sacred site law to bilk any casino developer anywhere in the state.

[Victoria Delsoul]

Notwithstanding the absence of a historical basis for this theory of rigid separation, the wall idea might well have served as a useful albeit misguided analytical concept, had it led this Court to unified and principled results in Establishment Clause cases. The opposite, unfortunately, has been true; in the 38 years since Everson our Establishment Clause cases have been neither principled nor unified. Our recent opinions, many of them hopelessly divided pluralities,(6) have with embarrassing candor conceded that the "wall of separation" is merely a "blurred, indistinct, and variable barrier," which "is not wholly accurate" and can only be "dimly perceived."

But no amount of repetition of historical errors in judicial opinions can make the errors true. The "wall of separation between church and State" is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging. It should be frankly and explicitly abandoned.

Excellent! Thanks so much, Gawain. Bookmarked.

[Sir Gawain]

You're welcome! :-)

[concentric circles]

Bump for an excellent post, discussion and for a vigorous American electorate.

[Kevin Curry]

No, tpaine, it is your understanding of constitutional history that is flawed (not suprisingly).

Once again: the federal Bill of Rights was designed as a limitation on federal power only. Religion was a matter left entirely and exclusively to the states.

Because religion was left entirely to the states, each state adopted its own laws and constitutional provisions concering religion. Here's what Virginia adopted:

Section 16. Free exercise of religion; no establishment of religion.

"That religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and, therefore, all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other. No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain their opinions in matters of religion, and the same shall in nowise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities. And the General Assembly shall not prescribe any religious test whatever, or confer any peculiar privileges or advantages on any sect or denomination, or pass any law requiring or authorizing any religious society, or the people of any district within this Commonwealth, to levy on themselves or others, any tax for the erection or repair of any house of public worship, or for the support of any church or ministry; but it shall be left free to every person to select his religious instructor, and to make for his support such private contract as he shall please."

Use your brain, tpaine. If the federal Bill of Rights was intended to bind the states as well as the federal government, why did the people of Virginia adopt their own separate, detailed and wordy free exercise and establishment clauses in that state's constitution? Just for grins? Because they had an extra pot of ink and a couple of quills and wanted to doodle?

[f.Christian]

The govt is functioning under herd instinct now ... cattle pens --- packing house !

Feed lot education too !

[tpaine]

Others of his opinion, like Luis Gonzalez, are not so immature. They actually have read some things and post actual quotations
81 -Gullible Swifty-


Don't ferget roscoe, FR's king of the inane quote.
83 -tpaine-


f.Christian wrote:
The govt is functioning under herd instinct now ... cattle pens --- packing house !
Feed lot education too !
-FC-


Sorry kid, your submission for the inanity prize needs more work, compared to roscoes best efforts.

[A. Pole]

It is impossible to build sound constitutional doctrine upon a mistaken understanding of constitutional history, but unfortunately the Establishment Clause has been expressly freighted with Jefferson's misleading metaphor for nearly 40 years. Thomas Jefferson was of course in France at the time the constitutional Amendments known as the Bill of Rights were passed by Congress and ratified by the States. His letter to the Danbury Baptist Association was a short note of courtesy, written 14 years after the Amendments were passed by Congress. He would seem to any detached observer as a less than ideal source of contemporary history as to the meaning of the Religion Clauses of the First Amendment.

Bump

[Luis Gonzalez]

"Perhaps Jefferson should hop out of his grave and explain how not allowing students to pray before a sports event."

I watch students pray before sporting events all the time, there's no one compelling them to do so as a group, but they pray. Some alone, some in small groups.

I asked my neighbor's daughters (very devout family) about prayer in school, and they pray...they are not led to prayer by anyone...they pray, and no one tells them they can't.

There's a difference between "not allowing" students to pray, and not allowing the school to set aside time to lead everyone in prayer.

Honestly, would you feel comfortable having school bureocrats composing a non-denominational, all-inclusive prayer to lead students on a daily basis?

I wouldn't, in fact, I would demand that my children be allowed to pray privately.

[f.Christian]

Maybe you have your towell on too tight !

[Luis Gonzalez]

"That second statement by Jefferson came a full 6 years after he coined the quotation "wall of separation of church and state" '

Jefferson did not "coin" that phrase, he borrowed it (as did James Madison) from Roger Williams, founder of Rhode Island.

[tpaine]

Use your brain, tpaine. If the federal Bill of Rights was intended to bind the states as well as the federal government, why did the people of Virginia adopt their own separate, detailed and wordy free exercise and establishment clauses in that state's constitution? Just for grins? Because they had an extra pot of ink and a couple of quills and wanted to doodle?
90 -kev-


The Constitution of Virginia
June 29, 1776
Bill of Rights; June 12, 1776


U.S. BOR's ratified 1791.

[philetus]

"I believe certain types of censorship are necessary to prevent the perverts of society from influencing our children. The same for general religious doctrines."

You want the gov to censor something that it underhandidly condones.

[Libertina]

BTTT

[Badray]

Hi!

I have a question for you.

How do you do it?

This is the 2nd Ten Commandments thread in a row where you had the 99th post.

And if you do it on purpose, why?

LOL

How are you?

BTW, it is a great post, isn't it?