When will Moore's monument be moved? (Who will replace Judge Moore?)

Mobile Register ^

[Happy2BMe]

When will Moore's monument be moved?

08/25/03By SALLIE OWEN and BILL BARROW
Capital Bureau

MONTGOMERY -- J. Gorman Houston Jr. will begin his first workday as Alabama's acting chief justice today armed with an attorney general's opinion granting him all the duties and authority given the chief justice.

Chief Justice Roy Moore was suspended from office immediately after a judicial ethics panel filed charges against him Friday. Charges stem from Moore's refusal to obey a federal court order and remove his Ten Commandments monument from public areas of the Alabama Judicial Building. The suspension lasts until the case is resolved by the Court of the Judiciary.

Moore is expected to make a public statement on the matter today.

Houston said Sunday that in his new role as acting chief justice, he could individually order the building manager to move the monument, as the eight associate justices did together Thursday morning. He said he might issue a duplicate order but had not made a final decision.

Attorney General Bill Pryor issued the opinion Saturday, answering several questions Houston posed a day earlier to clarify his duties and responsibilities as acting chief justice.

The Alabama constitution states that judges shall be disqualified, or suspended, from "acting as a judge" while charges are pending with the Court of the Judiciary. State law specifies that, if the chief justice is "disabled" from carrying out his duties because of illness or other reason, the senior associate justice will assume those responsibilities.

Houston has served as an associate justice on Alabama's Supreme Court for nearly 18 years.

According to the opinion, Houston will also have hiring and firing authority over the administrative director of courts and all members of the chief justice's staff.

Houston said he would not make any personnel changes until after he meets with the associate justices, saying he wanted it to be a "democratic process."

Meanwhile, protesters covered the front portico of the judicial building and dotted downtown street corners for the fifth consecutive day. Temperatures reached 95 degrees in Montgomery, according to the National Weather Service, with a heat index in the triple digits.

The sermons, prayers and hymns of Moore's supporters carried on throughout the day, with a two-hour worship service in the morning, an afternoon prayer service and an evening rally.

Between 500 and 1,000 demonstrators crowded around the building listening to the evening speeches when someone noticed a young man perched on a third-story ledge of the judicial building. The rally went on as planned as Montgomery police and area rescue officials tried to talk the man, who did not appear to be threatening to jump, into coming down.

Protest organizers said the man, who had been around for a few days, largely had kept to himself throughout the weekend. Some said they only knew him by the name "Greg" and had no other information.

Organizer Troy Newman of Operation Rescue called for additional people to camp out over night at the judicial building because "something very critical could happen to the monument tomorrow morning."

No information on plans to move the monument was available from state officials. Moore supporters are expected to file a counter suit in a Mobile federal court today seeking to prevent anyone from moving the 5,300-pound chunk of granite.

The Rev. Patrick Mahoney, head of the Christian Defense Coalition, said the suit will name Alabama's eight remaining Supreme Court justices as defendants.

Mahoney informally addressed Moore supporters during the late afternoon, explaining to them the group's plan to block symbolically any effort to remove the monument. He told protesters "to kneel side-by-side in Christian love" to block authorities or heavy equipment from entering the building to remove the stone.

"But do not lock arms" or resist arrest, he said, before repeating, "Do not, do not lock arms." Mahoney told the group that protest leaders have discussed their civil disobedience procedures with law enforcement personnel. "When a policeman tells you to get up, get up."

Moore's supporters have attracted counter-protesters of their own. Bob Kunst arrived in Montgomery late last week after a 12-hour trip Miami Beach, Fla. A practicing Jew, Kunst said he opposes government displays of religion and wants to highlight that there are people of faith who disagree with Moore's manner of acknowledging the Almighty.

"God doesn't need symbolism. God is God," Kunst said, standing on the corner of Dexter Avenue and McDonough Street.

Kunst held a sign reading, "Sodomites For The Separation of Church and State," a dig at some Moore supporters who have hurled insults at him in recent days. Most of the protesters, however, have been friendly, Kunst said.

Across from Kunst, a small band of Moore supporters displayed a sign of their own: "The wicked shall be turned into Hell."

Also on Sunday, Larry Darby, director of American Atheists' Alabama chapter, announced plans to hold a rally Monday for supporters of separation of church and state. Darby said the event would take place across the street from the judicial building at 11 a.m.

[Happy2BMe]

Out with the Ten Commandments - Out with the judge?

[TheBattman]

I am still waiting for a firm explanation of where, EXACTLY, this supposed "separation of church and state" is spelled out in the Constitution.

The way I read it, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" is not ambiguous. I honestly believe that our fourfathers had the wisdom to write what they meant. In this case, taken at face value - and not reading more into it than is there - it simply says that the Congress shall not force a particular establishment of religion - no state church as was the case in Europe at the time (what many settlers to the US were escaping. Read the following article: ---------------

The Myth of
the Separation of Church and State

---

Anytime religion is mentioned within the confines of government today people cry, "Separation of Church and State".  Many people think this statement appears in the first amendment of the U.S. Constitution and therefore must be strictly enforced.  However, the words: "separation", "church", and "state" do not even appear in the first amendment.  The first amendment reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."  The statement about a wall of separation between church and state was made in a letter on January 1, 1802, by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut.  The congregation heard a widespread rumor that the Congregationalists, another denomination, were to become the national religion.  This was very alarming to people who knew about religious persecution in England by the state established church.  Jefferson made it clear in his letter to the Danbury Congregation that the separation was to be that government would not establish a national religion or dictate to men how to worship God.  Jefferson's letter from which the phrase "separation of church and state" was taken affirmed first amendment rights.  Jefferson wrote:

I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.  (1)

The reason Jefferson choose the expression "separation of church and state" was because he was addressing a Baptist congregation; a denomination of which he was not a member.  Jefferson wanted to remove all fears that the state would make dictates to the church.  He was establishing common ground with the Baptists by borrowing the words of Roger Williams, one of the Baptist's own prominent preachers.  Williams had said:

When they have opened a gap in the hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the Church and the wilderness of the world, God hath ever broke down the wall itself, removed the candlestick, and made his garden a wilderness, as at this day.  And that there fore if He will eer please to restore His garden and paradise again, it must of necessity be walled in peculiarly unto Himself from the world...

----

This article was taken from http://www.noapathy.org/tracts/mythofseparation.html>

[Happy2BMe]

They (the lawyers) have turned against him with as great a vengence as the Sanhedrin (Jewish court) that tried and convicted Christ.

Same crowd showed up then.

This is truly a spiritual battle to the utmost.

[Happy2BMe]

Oct. 4th, 1982 - 97th Congress Proclaimed "Year of The Bible" - Twenty Years Later What Has Changed?

[Dave S]

Check out the Alabama Constitution. It leaves no wiggle wrong. He clearly states that the state shall not establish, or give preference to one religion over another. That is what the Elmer Gantry clown Moore is doing. He's doing this to generate votes for future political plans and money for his televangelist friends.

[ellery]

He does appear to be grandstanding. Maybe he's acting purely from conviction, and maybe he's acting for political gain. We'll see if he runs for Congress or establishes a PAC anytime soon.

[Happy2BMe]

Check out the preamble to the Alabama Constitution . . .

CONSTITUTION OF 1861

PREAMBLE

---

Revised by order of the Convention of the People, assembled at Montgomery on the Seventh Day of January, A. D., 1861.

We the People of the State of Alabama, having separated ourselves from the Government known as the United States of America, and being now by our representatives in Convention assembled, and acting in our sovereign and independent character; in order to establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity - invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God - do ordain and establish the following Constitution and form of Government for the State of Alabama: And the boundaries of this State are established to be: Beginning where the thirty-first degree of North latitude crosses the Perdido river; thence East, to the boundary line of the State of Georgia; thence along said line to the Southern boundary of the State of Tennessee; thence West, along the Southern boundary line of the State of Tennessee, crossing the Tennessee river, and on to the intersection of said river by said line; thence up said river to the mouth of Big Bear creek; thence by a direct line to the North-west corner of Washington county in this State, as originally formed; thence Southerly along the line of Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico; thence Eastwardly, including all Islands within six leagues of the shore, to the Perdido river; and thence up the same to the beginning.

[TheBattman]

I'm not quite sure what the term "wiggle wrong" means ...but....

You care to share a copy of the Alabama Constitution - preferable with the information in question clearly highlighted.

The display of the 10 commandments does not "establish" any religion. Also note that the monument also contains other quotes regarding the foundation of our laws - it's just that the most obvious portion of the monument is the tablets depicting the 10 Commandments..

Oh- and here his the quote from the Alabama Constitution (1901):

SECTION 3

Religious freedom.

That no religion shall be established by law; that no preference shall be given by law to any religious sect, society, denomination, or mode of worship; that no one shall be compelled by law to attend any place of worship; nor to pay any tithes, taxes, or other rate for building or repairing any place of worship, or for maintaining any minister or ministry; that no religious test shall be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under this state; and that the civil rights, privileges, and capacities of any citizen shall not be in any manner affected by his religious principles.

Again, read the document at FACE VALUE - the state shall establish no "state religion" ( ie - won't require every citizen to be a Methodist, or Catholic, or whatever...), The law will not give preference to one sect or denomination over another - won't allow one religious group to be tax free, restrict the practice of religion by any denomination or sect, won't make special exceptions to laws simply because of a specific religion. It also bars the government of Alabama from forcing citizens to pay for pastors, preachers, church buildings and up-keep, nor require citizens to be church members or attenders.

In addition, the constitution of Alabama does not allow the use of a religious test in the hiring of state workers, officers, leaders, etc. It also states that religious principals cannot be used to hire/fire or discriminate against any citizen of Alabama.

Did taxpayers pay for the monument in the Alabama courthouse? - NO

Are taxpayers forced to pay for the upkeep on the monument (cleaning)? - NO.

Are Alabama Citizens FORCED to pay homage, tribute, or even to look at the monument? - NO

[Ladytotheright]

I agree---I am speaking to all that Kunst is a sicko from way back. he was responsible for much of the unrest of the country for some time----=also who the H are our Fourfathers--lol who are these four men---are any of them related to our forefathers??? or is it forfathers---

[Dave S]

"wiggle wrong

Meant to say wiggle room but I just finished seven hour on the road and my mind hasnt caught up with my body.

You dont think that dropping a two ton rock with the ten commandments isnt going to indicate to Hindus and others that the state has a preference for Christians (and perhaps Jews) who need to appear before the court. That according to a plain reading ("preference") is unconstitutional.

You make a big deal out of the fact that the people of Alabama didnt pay for and are not paying for the maintennce of the monument. Who is paying for the space that its sitting on? If you have ever been involved in budgeting, you know that office space gets allocated out to various people and that there are charges for that space. The people of Alabama are paying for the space that the monument takes up. The way to avoid that is to get the rock out and stick it up Moore's you know what. That's where his brain is.

[Alas Babylon!]

The Alabama constitution of 1861 is based on the Confederate constitution and was completely rewritten in 1901.

[TexasCajun]

When the government of our peers, elected & those appointed by the elected, no longer TRUST in God & even force His words to be removed from the public building, I think it might be time I took my goverment issued currency to the Federal Bank ask for its worth in gold.

[Alas Babylon!]

Here is the preamble of the 1901 Alabama Constitution:

PREAMBLE
We, the people of the State of Alabama, in order to establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution and form of government for the State of Alabama:

[Happy2BMe]

Here ya go (note: Almighty God was never removed from the 1901 preamble) . . .

Preamble We, the people of the State of Alabama, in order to establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution and form of government for the State of Alabama:

[TheBattman]

You make a big deal out of the fact that the people of Alabama didnt pay for and are not paying for the maintennce of the monument. Who is paying for the space that its sitting on? If you have ever been involved in budgeting, you know that office space gets allocated out to various people and that there are charges for that space. The people of Alabama are paying for the space that the monument takes up. The way to avoid that is to get the rock out and stick it up Moore's you know what. That's where his brain is.

What a brilliant use of verbage! I especially like the violent image of you cramming at granite monument up Judge Moore's rectum....realy pretty image....

In all seriousness, how is a monument in the rotunda (no offices there, nor could there be) taking up valuable space? It's not in the way, it doesn't block passage or flow of traffic, it is not occupying space otherwise suitable for other work being done. What is the cost for the space the monument occupies - nothing.

If Hindu group or other want to provide a monument that symbolizes or recognizes the historical foundation of our country/state of Alabama and it's laws then I suppose they would be free to do so - as long as it does not cost the taxpayers anything and does not interfere with work being done in the building - blocking traffic, take away workspace, etc..

Has any other group tried to place a monument, or even inquired about doing so? If not, then how can you prove "preference"?

[Alas Babylon!]

Har Har...beat ya!!!! See post above yours :-)

[Byron_the_Aussie]

...Kunst held a sign reading, "Sodomites For The Separation of Church and State"....

Sign suggestion bump!

[rwfromkansas]

Actually, he is giving preference to two religions, not one over another. :)

[rwfromkansas]

I think it is from both ends, which is why I support him despite his political ambitions.

[Happy2BMe]

"When the government of our peers, elected & those appointed by the elected, no longer TRUST in God & even force His words to be removed from the public building, I think it might be time I took my goverment issued currency to the Federal Bank ask for its worth in gold."

There is something MUCH BIGGER than that slab of marble going on here . . .

The next step for the agnostics and atheists is to remove all traces of God from anything even remotely attatched to our gubbermint (e.g., congressional prayer, chaplains in the military, reference to God on our currency, etc.)

A whole lotta shakin' goin' on!