Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: general_re
Fair enough. But you're still glossing over the hard part of all this

No, I'm taking things one step at a time. Slight difference.

Yes, but only in the sorts of cases that I earlier suggested don't really happen very often.

Don't happen very often? Earlier you were saying that they "don't exist in reality". We're making progress ;-)

Our understanding of these other aspects being "correct" based on what?

Based on applying logic. That means giving the ol' noggon a shake, maybe drinking a cup of coffee, to get the motor up and running. To take an example, you said, "The language of the Constitution is pretty clear that we can't forbid all types of weapon in the hands of the citizenry, and common sense tells us that we can't allow all types of weapons to be available to the citizenry." Common sense does indeed say that, but it doesn't say that the federal government should be the one to prevent the most extreme types of weapons from being available to anyone. Furthermore, nothing in the Constitution grants the feds the power to do that in the first place.

So see? With some effort, we can flesh out the meaning more and more.

...where we should draw the line - which is, as I said, a political question, not a Constitutional question.

If you really believe that, then what business do the courts have getting involved at all? If it's a "political" question, then it should be resolved by the political branches.

If a court can't claim to know for a fact that its ruling is correct, then the ruling deserves no respect at all. If they say to me that what I'm doing is in theory illegal, I think I'd be perfectly justified in telling them to get back to me when they've come to an actual conclusion.

1,203 posted on 08/28/2003 10:10:16 AM PDT by inquest (We are NOT the world)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1202 | View Replies ]


To: inquest
We're making progress ;-)

Ah, it looks that way now, but my Predict-O-Meter is buzzing furiously and warning me that we're on the verge of traveling full circle ;)

Based on applying logic. That means giving the ol' noggon a shake, maybe drinking a cup of coffee, to get the motor up and running.

Everybody has a logical argument, is the problem - the arguments of Handgun Control, Inc. follow perfectly logically from their premises, if you accept those premises to begin with. They feel that the exchange of less personal freedom for less risk of gun violence is a worthwhile trade-off; you feel that the exchange of more freedom for a greater risk of gun violence is a worthwhile trade. But in either case, it's not a matter of the law or of logic - it's a matter of personal values choices. You value freedom, they value safety, and no logic of yours is going to persuade them to exchange their values for yours. I presume that the same is true for you, because, let's face it - they're right, to a certain extent. It is absolutely undeniable that societies with fewer guns have less gun violence, but that doesn't persuade you because you rightly point out that they have less personal freedom, and you value freedom more than less gun violence.

But these are values choices, as I said, and persuading someone that their values are all fouled up is a damn hard row to hoe. And it's exactly those values that ultimately dictate to one where the line on freedoms should be drawn - not the Constitution, not logic, not reason, but your personal values choices. Certainly, logical arguments abound, but only in service of the values we already hold dear. And if this rhetoric on values choices sounds awfully familiar, it should ;)

Common sense does indeed say that, but it doesn't say that the federal government should be the one to prevent the most extreme types of weapons from being available to anyone. Furthermore, nothing in the Constitution grants the feds the power to do that in the first place.

Fine, but the problem is that nothing in the Constitution explicitly states that anyone has the power to act in service of what we both recognize is common sense. You can, I suppose, point to the Tenth Amendement and claim that it grants the states the power to restrict those freedoms. I can equally well point to the Ninth and say that I have the right to be free of state interference in this matter, and point also to the absolute language of the Second in support of that, so hands off my nuke, Mr. County Sheriff. And then where does that leave us? Back to the 14'th Amendment in the courts, that's where.

If you really believe that, then what business do the courts have getting involved at all? If it's a "political" question, then it should be resolved by the political branches.

Judicial rhetoric aside, the courts have been involved in political issues from the beginning, and they always will be. They like to pretend that they're apolitical, and we like to pretend that we believe them, but let's not delude ourselves into thinking that this is actually the case. The illusion that the courts are apolitical is critical to what legitimacy they have, but it is only an illusion - if it were true that the courts were apolitical, we wouldn't see such nasty political fights over judicial nominations. But it is still a useful illusion - we need some sort of mechanism for dispute resolution, and so we tolerate the pretense of the courts, and, in fact, actively participate in it. Then, when it suits us to pull back the curtain, we accuse the judges who make rulings that we don't like of being improperly mired in politics, and blame them for failing to properly settle disputes that we never should have brought to them in the first place. And since both sides get to do that quite regularly, everybody's happy.

But if you want someone to blame, blame Congress for being all too willing to avoid taking stands on controversial political issues, and punting off to the courts instead. No matter how this issue resolves itself, someone is going to be unhappy about Judge Moore's fate - in fact, a lot of someones are going to be very unhappy. And Congress has absolutely no interest in getting involved in a giant tar-pit of a mess like that, not when they can simply let the courts take the blame for however it works out. Then, the Congressmen from the happy side can praise the impartial administration of the law by the courts, and the unhappy side can accuse the judges of being improperly mired in political concerns, and everyone gets to strike an appropriate public pose for the folks back home. But there is no way they're going to step in and fix it themselves, even though they could. Not a chance. Getting re-elected is much more important to them than any potential long-term benefits that might come about from resolving controversial political issues.

Cynical? You bet. But in your gut, you know it's true...

1,204 posted on 08/28/2003 11:07:35 AM PDT by general_re (Today is a day for firm decisions! Or is it?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1203 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson