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To: Vindiciae Contra TyrannoSCOTUS
Religious Freedom Restoration Act -- passed yet?
Ten Commandments Defense Act of 2003 -- passed yet?


Those of us who wish to see a nation joined with religion, will want to do what these laws submitted to the house propose.

Those of us who don't, won't.

This will be played out in the Courts, and the judge will either get his way, be forced to obey, or resign and take a "christians and the law" program on TBN...

As long as it does not violate the lemon test, it will be allowed. And if it is found to violate that test, it will be removed.
Some folks don't like the lemon test.
Some folks would like to see it enforced in every religious state on the planet, starting with the arab/islamofascists.

A monument to the Koran would not fly at this juncture, in Alabama. Neither I suspect, would a posting of the 600 plus prohibitions of the Torah.

I beleive the monument might stay on a "historical law document" basis, if the judge were to allow other items as above. He won't. I think the issue is much like the cross on mt. soledad in san diego. To keep it up there, the governmental property had to be ceeded to a non profit org.

I would like to see a poll amongst freepers, to clarify how many of us want some, none, or a measure of separation between religion and law... perhaps the powers that be would allow it, for curiosity sake. I am guessing about 50 percent are against religion state assocation, 32-35 clearly for it, and the balance, somewhere in the middle...
20 posted on 08/15/2003 4:48:48 PM PDT by Robert_Paulson2 (winning is not everything... it's the only thing. if you don't win, you cannot govern.)
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To: Robert_Paulson2

Lamb's Chapel v. Center Moriches School District 508 US 384 (1993)

JUSTICE SCALIA, with whom JUSTICE THOMAS joins, concurring in the judgment.

As to the Court's invocation of the Lemon test: like some ghoul in a late-night horror movie that repeatedly sits up in its grave and shuffles abroad after being repeatedly killed and buried, Lemon stalks our Establishment Clause jurisprudence once again, frightening the little children and school attorneys of Center Moriches Union Free School District. Its most recent burial, only last Term, was, to be sure, not fully six feet under: Our decision in Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. 577, 586 -587 (1992), conspicuously avoided using the supposed "test," but also declined the invitation to repudiate it. Over the years, however, no fewer than five of the currently sitting Justices have, in their own opinions, personally driven pencils through the creature's heart (the author of today's opinion repeatedly), and a sixth has joined an opinion doing so. See, e.g., Weisman, supra, at 644 (SCALIA, J., joined by, inter alios, THOMAS, J., dissenting); Allegheny County v. American Civil Liberties Union, Greater Pittsburgh Chapter, 492 U.S. 573, 655 -657 (1989) (KENNEDY, J., concurring in judgment in part and dissenting in part); Corporation of Presiding Bishop of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints v. Amos, 483 U.S. 327, 346 -349 (1987) (O'CONNOR, J., concurring in judgment); Wallace v. Jaffree, 472 U.S. 38, 107 -113 (1985) (REHNQUIST, J., dissenting); id., at 90-91 (WHITE, J., dissenting); School Dist. of Grand Rapids v. Ball, 473 U.S. 373, 400 (1985) (WHITE, J., dissenting); Widmar v. Vincent, 454 U.S. 263, 282 (1981) (WHITE, J., dissenting); New York v. Cathedral Academy, 434 U.S. 125 , [508 U.S. 385, 399] 134-135 (1977) (WHITE, J., dissenting); Roemer v. Board of Pub. Works, of Md., 426 U.S. 736, 768 (1976) (WHITE, J., concurring in judgment); Committee for Public Educ. & Religious Liberty v. Nyquist, 413 U.S. 756, 820 (1973) (WHITE, J., dissenting).

The secret of the Lemon test's survival, I think, is that it is so easy to kill. It is there to scare us (and our audience) when we wish it to do so, but we can command it to return to the tomb at will. See, e.g., Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. 668, 679 (1984) (noting instances in which Court has not applied Lemon test). When we wish to strike down a practice it forbids, we invoke it, see, e.g., Aguilar v. Fenton, 473 U.S. 402 (1985) (striking down state remedial education program administered in part in parochial schools); when we wish to uphold a practice it forbids, we ignore it entirely, see Marsh v. Chambers, 463 U.S. 783 (1983) (upholding state legislative chaplains). Sometimes, we take a middle course, calling its three prongs "no more than helpful signposts," Hunt v. McNair, 413 U.S. 734, 741 (1973). Such a docile and useful monster is worth keeping around, at least in a somnolent state; one never knows when one might need him.

For my part, I agree with the long list of constitutional scholars who have criticized Lemon and bemoaned the strange Establishment Clause geometry of crooked lines and wavering shapes its intermittent use has produced. See, e.g., Choper, The Establishment Clause and Aid to Parochial Schools - An Update, 75 Calif.L.Rev. 5 (1987); Marshall, "We Know It When We See It": The Supreme Court and Establishment, 59 S.Cal.L.Rev. 495 (1986); McConnell, Accommodation of Religion, 1985 S.Ct. Rev. 1; Kurland, The Religion Clauses and the Burger Court, 34 Cath. U.L.Rev. 1 (1984); R. Cord, Separation of Church and State (1982); Choper, The Religion Clauses of the First Amendment: Reconciling the Conflict, 41 U.Pitt.L.Rev. 673 (1980). I will decline to apply Lemon - whether it validates [508 U.S. 385, 400] or invalidates the government action in question - and therefore cannot Join the opinion of the Court today.


25 posted on 08/15/2003 5:08:56 PM PDT by Vindiciae Contra TyrannoSCOTUS
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To: Robert_Paulson2
SHUT UP AND SIGN THE PETITION IN POST 18
27 posted on 08/15/2003 5:11:24 PM PDT by Vindiciae Contra TyrannoSCOTUS
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To: Robert_Paulson2
want some, none, or a measure of separation between religion and law

What is the basis of just law?

36 posted on 08/15/2003 6:16:28 PM PDT by cornelis
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