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To: LexBaird
The matter wasn't really taken up until after the war.

Not true. His despotic action was found to be unconstitutional by a Federal Circuit Court almost immediately after he did it, and that ruling was never challenged. Lincoln simply ignored the Court, in true tyrant fashion. Many many many thousands of Northern citizens and members of the Press were arrested without charges and locked away in cells without due process as guaranteed by the Constitution. All in areas where the Courts never ceased to function and there was no "rebellion" or "insurrection". Can you say "Police State"?

Bottom line, it's a moot point: as far as when Lincoln took the action, it was legal for him to do so.

No, it wasn't and even Lincoln himself admitted that to be the case:

"I felt that measures, otherwise unconstitutional, might become lawful, by becoming indispensable to the preservation of the constitution, through the preservation of the nation. Right or wrong, I assumed this ground, and now avow it." - Letter to A.G. Hodges

BTW, if you'll read your Constitution, you'll see that not only does it NOT contain an such an asinine (and dangerous) method of Amendment, but it also specifically states that ex post facto laws are UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Sorry, but Lincoln violated his oath and trashed the Constitution. Even Lincoln says so.

284 posted on 08/17/2003 1:12:36 PM PDT by thatdewd (History without truth is just another lie.)
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To: thatdewd; ought-six
BTW, if you'll read your Constitution, you'll see that not only does it NOT contain an such an asinine (and dangerous) method of Amendment, but it also specifically states that ex post facto laws are UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Sorry, but Lincoln violated his oath and trashed the Constitution. Even Lincoln says so.

Hey, .06, now this is a classic strawman. Note how thatdewd has changed the whole thing to ex post facto laws and amending the Constitution from out of the blue, then argues their constitutionality? Even though that wasn't what was being discussed, nor a position espoused by me?

Hey, dewd, calm down. We can't have a reasonable discussion if you go off on a tirade about police states and tyrants. Were he the police-state ruling tyrant you feel, why did he stand for re-election at the end of his term, instead of merely establishing a dictatorship? (that question was rhetorical, btw. I haven't the time, energy, nor inclination to get into that can of grits.)

Many many many thousands of Northern citizens and members of the Press were arrested without charges and locked away in cells without due process as guaranteed by the Constitution. All in areas where the Courts never ceased to function and there was no "rebellion" or "insurrection".

And was not ruled on by the USSC until 1866, when it was held to be unconstitutional. A year after Lincoln was killed. Five years after habeus corpus was suspended. I posted a link some days ago, regarding the timeline, check it out. Riots and attacks on trains look a whole lot like insurrection to me.

Not true. His despotic action was found to be unconstitutional by a Federal Circuit Court almost immediately after he did it, and that ruling was never challenged. Lincoln simply ignored the Court, in true tyrant fashion.

That would have been the ruling by Taney, right? The same Taney who ruled in the Dred Scott case, right? Maybe there was a good reason Taney's rulings were ignored in a time of war, perhaps because he was a political stooge for the copperheads.

Tell you what, I'll even grant you that, in light of subsequent rulings, Lincoln was ill-advised in his assumption of powers. But, at the time he took them, there was reason for him to believe they could be legally assumed, and pressing emergency reasons for him to do so. Congress was not in session, and the events in Maryland were happening apace. Would you have had him allow Maryland to fall into civil disorder, isolating Washington DC?

Bottom line, it's a moot point: as far as when Lincoln took the action, it was legal for him to do so.

No, it wasn't and even Lincoln himself admitted that to be the case:

"I felt that measures, otherwise unconstitutional, might become lawful, by becoming indispensable to the preservation of the constitution, through the preservation of the nation. Right or wrong, I assumed this ground, and now avow it." - Letter to A.G. Hodges

Your out-of-context quotation from the above letter is in regards to his actions on slavery (the Emancipation Proclamation) written in 1864, not on habeus corpus in 1861. Let me quote a further section of this letter, since Lincoln summed up my view of the war better than I could:

I claim not to have controlled events, but confess plainly that events have controlled me. Now, at the end of three years struggle the nation’s condition is not what either party, or any man devised, or expected. God alone can claim it. Whither it is tending seems plain. If God now wills the removal of a great wrong, and wills also that we of the North as well as you of the South, shall pay fairly for our complicity in that wrong, impartial history will find therein new cause to attest and revere the justice and goodness of God.

The war was a thing that controlled the men of the times, not visa-versa. Not Lincoln, nor Davis, nor any general that commanded troops was in control of anything. Not a one was an unalloyed villain or saint. They all played their cards as their conciences dictated them to do, as their faith in God led them, and as their upbringings constrained them.

That the war happened was a great tragedy, but it served to purge a greater evil from our nation, and left us with a hard-forged character. Without that character, I fear that today, we would be a collection of balkanized petty republics and economic colonies.

286 posted on 08/17/2003 9:55:35 PM PDT by LexBaird (Views seen in this tag are closer than they appear.)
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