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To: SupplySider; Alamo-Girl; unspun; Phaedrus; ALS; djf; AndrewC
Ancient Indian philosophers held that consciousness is not a product of the brain, but rather the mind, brain, and even the environment are products of universal consciousness.

SupplySider, thank you for this most interesting observation. I've been pondering the resemblance between this ancient insight of universal consciousness as the source of structure in the universe and Grandpierre's universal vacuum field/primary consciousness of the universe myself lately. I also caught resonances to this Eastern cosmological view in Evan Harris Walker's The Physics of Consciousness, and even Stephen Wolfram's A New Kind of Science. Perhaps physics will demonstrate the accuracy of this very ancient description in due course.

One thing the ancients did not wonder about, however, is how the universe came to have this structure. The issue never comes up, for the thinkers of both ancient India and classical Greece considered the universe to be eternal, not having any beginning in time. It "just is" the way it is: It's pointless to ask why it is the way it is and not some other way.

Yet physics tells us the universe did, indeed, have a beginning; and it would appear to have been a beginning of a nature or quality that structures the evolution of the universe in all its parts. In other words, the universe has a logos (to use the ancient Greek word) that gives it its structure as it evolves in time. The "picture" of that evolution may closely resemble what the ancient Indian philosophers describe.

It seems to me that if we speak of a logos of the beginning, then we are speaking of intelligent design. Which to my mind at least, implies an intelligent, willing designer.

This never was a problem in Indian philosophy, as far as I can tell. The question "what consciousness," what will or intelligence lies behind the order of the universe, doesn't come up. The question of ultimate cause may not be a proper question for science per se. But that doesn't make the question "go away."

Just some stray thoughts.... Thank you so much for writing, SupplySider.

271 posted on 08/09/2003 10:28:27 AM PDT by betty boop (We can have either human dignity or unfettered liberty, but not both. -- Dean Clancy)
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To: betty boop
Indeed, the significance of a beginning cannot be overstated. Even in multi-verse theories, there is always a beginning.

Thank you so much for the excellent analysis! Hugs!

272 posted on 08/09/2003 10:40:09 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop
"It seems to me that if we speak of a logos of the beginning, then we are speaking of intelligent design. Which to my mind at least, implies an intelligent, willing designer."

The stickler that sings its siren song with each moving molecule.

273 posted on 08/09/2003 10:52:17 AM PDT by ALS (http://designeduniverse.com Featuring original works by FR's finest . contact me to add yours!)
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To: betty boop
Very interesting ideas! I hope to respond when I am in a deep-thinking mood, but for now I enjoyed reading your thoughts very much.
317 posted on 08/11/2003 2:33:28 PM PDT by SupplySider
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To: betty boop
resonances to this Eastern cosmological view in Evan Harris Walker's The Physics of Consciousness

Ahh... Evan Harris Walker. I was wondering how many posts it would take for his name to come up. I worked with Harris for a number of years in an Army Laboratory. He's been to a number of my Christmas parties over the years. I could never decide whether he was brilliant or totally wacko... probably both. I must say I never knew a researcher who had his hands in more areas at a time, though.

He was the principal developer of the anti-fratricide design of the M1 tank's ammunition bustle. Without him and a few key others, the whole bustle would light up if one round was hit. He also envisioned electromagnetic armor decades before its possibility was even there, which is why it is sometimes called "Walker plate armor". And he and another scientist are primarily responsible for the efficient blast shield design that blast-isolates the two warheads in modern tandem warheads, like the TOW2 missile.

But, despite the practicality of the things I knew he worked in, his abstract research was always his true love. He was very big into quantum physics, and its association with consciousness. And into cancer research, where he earned a media black eye for supposedly hiring an unscrupulous fundraising firm to raise capital for his non-profit foray in that area.

But he paid dearly for his association with fringe science, though. He is very bitter over the fact that he was blackballed by prestigious journals, because of his association with paranormal research. While I have no doubt he was interested in researching those things, I'm guessing (my opinion) that he just liked hanging around those freaky paranormal chicks... He always put on airs of being a real lady's man, but for all I knew, he was just talking big and was really a devoted husband. Who can say?

Probably one of the more interesting people you'd ever meet. And he's still as active as ever, I hear.

393 posted on 08/15/2003 5:14:04 PM PDT by XEHRpa
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