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To: Poohbah
"Because, for a LOT of folks, it gives them an excuse to hate present-day Jews."

So, you should RE-write history? Sounds PC to me. I really don't think that's why people "hate" the Jews. It might be an easy peg to hang their intellectual hat on, but I think their hatred has to be based on something else. But I see no reason to change historical facts just because they don't fit an agenda.

We've already seen "black historians" claim that over 20 million blacks were removed from Africa and brought to the US. This outrageous claim, totally unsupported by any facts (the figure is closer to 675,000 . . . about the same number of white Americans killed in the Civil War), is STILL being used to trash fellow Americans. If only we could accept facts for facts and learn from our mistakes, we wouldn't have this vitriolic feeling toward other groups of men.
32 posted on 08/01/2003 12:53:58 PM PDT by laweeks (I)
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To: laweeks
It's not re-writing history--it's accurately putting the blame on the guys who actually did the deed.
33 posted on 08/01/2003 1:03:45 PM PDT by Poohbah (Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.)
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To: All
First, let me apologize for the length of this post. But I am sick to death about this whole complaint from the ADL and those in the Catholic church that are complaining that the gospel accounts are antisemetic and that the Vatican II had absolved the Jews of responsibility. But I beg your indulgence and read this post and the passages attached, and then, if need by, share them with those you confront that argue the same ADL line.

Jesus Christ was not the Messiah that the Chief Priests and Jewish leaders wanted. Jews of that day (and even today) believed that the Messiah was going to be an earthly King. That the Messiah would come and rule on the throne of David and return the Nation of Israel to world dominance as they were during David's rule. When Jesus came and began preaching a kingdom of Heaven and earth, and began preaching a gospel of love and peace, those of the Jewish faith that longed to be out from under the rule of Rome, and more powerful than Rome plotted to kill him. The gospel of Christ destroyed all that the religious leaders of that day had. The Chief Priests and elders were men of power and money. Christ preached a message that would take away their power and money. Their whole objection to Jesus was not so much religious as it was money. Man has never really changed. Power and money are the many objective for so many. They saw that if Jesus was successful, and allowed to continue unopposed, that it would mean an end to their power and money. An even cursory read of the 4 gospel accounts reveals that the Jewish leaders were plotting to kill Jesus from early in his ministry. Jews today can complain all they want, but it is clear...the Jewish leaders wanted him dead. Here are a few passages, not from Mel Gibson's script...but from the Holy Bible...what do they say?

Matthew 26:3-4 Then the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders of the people assembled at the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas, 4 and plotted to take Jesus by trickery and kill Him. (the chief priests and elders were of the Jewish church)

Matthew 27:1 When morning came, all the chief priests and elders of the people plotted against Jesus to put Him to death.

Mark 14:55 Now the chief priests and all the council sought testimony against Jesus to put Him to death, but found none.

Then on the Day of Pentecost, after Christ's death, the Apostle Peter, (who was a JEW)(the same one that the Vatican claims was the first Pope,) gave the following sermon. Who did he blame for Christ's death?)
Acts 2:22-38 Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know -- 23 "Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 "whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 "For David says concerning Him: 'I foresaw the LORD always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. 26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. 27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. 28 You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.' 29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 "Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 "he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 "This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 "Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." ' 36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, the Romans were the ones that carried out the execution, since the Jews did not have that authority under law. But even the Romans were unhappy about it. Pilate and Herod didn't really want anything to do with it. As is recorded again in the Holy Writ.

Luke 23:1 Then the whole multitude of them arose and led Him to Pilate. 2 And they began to accuse Him, saying, "We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar, saying that He Himself is Christ, a King." 3 Then Pilate asked Him, saying, "Are You the King of the Jews?" He answered him and said, "It is as you say." 4 So Pilate said to the chief priests and the crowd, "I find no fault in this Man." 5 But they were the more fierce, saying, "He stirs up the people, teaching throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee to this place." 6 When Pilate heard of Galilee, he asked if the Man were a Galilean. 7 And as soon as he knew that He belonged to Herod's jurisdiction, he sent Him to Herod, who was also in Jerusalem at that time. 8 Now when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceedingly glad; for he had desired for a long time to see Him, because he had heard many things about Him, and he hoped to see some miracle done by Him. 9 Then he questioned Him with many words, but He answered him nothing. 10 And the chief priests and scribes stood and vehemently accused Him. 11 Then Herod, with his men of war, treated Him with contempt and mocked Him, arrayed Him in a gorgeous robe, and sent Him back to Pilate. 12 That very day Pilate and Herod became friends with each other, for previously they had been at enmity with each other. 13 Then Pilate, when he had called together the chief priests, the rulers, and the people, 14 said to them, "You have brought this Man to me, as one who misleads the people. And indeed, having examined Him in your presence, I have found no fault in this Man concerning those things of which you accuse Him; 15 "no, neither did Herod, for I sent you back to him; and indeed nothing deserving of death has been done by Him. 16 "I will therefore chastise Him and release Him" 17 (for it was necessary for him to release one to them at the feast). 18 And they all cried out at once, saying, "Away with this Man, and release to us Barabbas" -- 19 who had been thrown into prison for a certain rebellion made in the city, and for murder. 20 Pilate, therefore, wishing to release Jesus, again called out to them. 21 But they shouted, saying, "Crucify Him, crucify Him!" 22 Then he said to them the third time, "Why, what evil has He done? I have found no reason for death in Him. I will therefore chastise Him and let Him go." 23 But they were insistent, demanding with loud voices that He be crucified. And the voices of these men and of the chief priests prevailed. 24 So Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they requested. 25 And he released to them the one they requested, who for rebellion and murder had been thrown into prison; but he delivered Jesus to their will.

John 19:1-16 1 So then Pilate took Jesus and scourged Him. 2 And the soldiers twisted a crown of thorns and put it on His head, and they put on Him a purple robe. 3 Then they said, "Hail, King of the Jews!" And they struck Him with their hands. 4 Pilate then went out again, and said to them, "Behold, I am bringing Him out to you, that you may know that I find no fault in Him." 5 Then Jesus came out, wearing the crown of thorns and the purple robe. And Pilate said to them, "Behold the Man!" 6 Therefore, when the chief priests and officers saw Him, they cried out, saying, "Crucify Him, crucify Him!" Pilate said to them, "You take Him and crucify Him, for I find no fault in Him." 7 The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and according to our law He ought to die, because He made Himself the Son of God." 8 Therefore, when Pilate heard that saying, he was the more afraid, 9 and went again into the Praetorium, and said to Jesus, "Where are You from?" But Jesus gave him no answer. 10 Then Pilate said to Him, "Are You not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have power to crucify You, and power to release You?" 11 Jesus answered, "You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin." 12 From then on Pilate sought to release Him, but the Jews cried out, saying, "If you let this Man go, you are not Caesar's friend. Whoever makes himself a king speaks against Caesar." 13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus out and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called The Pavement, but in Hebrew, Gabbatha. 14 Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover, and about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, "Behold your King!" 15 But they cried out, "Away with Him, away with Him! Crucify Him!" Pilate said to them, "Shall I crucify your King?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caesar!" 16 Then he delivered Him to them to be crucified. So they took Jesus and led Him away.

So...according to the Word of God...who demanded, yes demanded the death of Jesus? The Jewish religious leaders. But it was about money and power. Period. But just because the Jews of 2000 years ago killed my Savior, doesn't mean that I am going to go out and attack Jews. Just as white people of 150 years ago owned black slaves, doesn't mean that white people today are going to try and bring back slavery. It is just stupid. The ADL has lost any and all credibility that they may have had with me.

I have seen the preview scenes that have been circulating here at FR and other sites. I must say...even the short preview made me misty eyed. Just those few moments of film showed to me just what torture that my Savior endured for ME. And I for one plan on seeing the movie...and when the DVD comes out, I plan on making several purchases of same. For me and for gifts for my family and friends. All I can say is God Bless Mel Gibson for having the courage to do what many, many people in the religious world won't do. Tell the truth.
41 posted on 08/01/2003 1:39:17 PM PDT by yukong
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