[Cacophonous]

Oh my freedom is very concrete, thank you. But then again, I've had it my whole life. The ones Bush was referring to have not; it is therefore an abstraction to them.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

If the freedoms that Americans enjoy are such abstractions, then tell me why people die while trying to come to this country, why immigration is always increasing, why Mexicans are dying in the desert, trying to come here. It is the freedom that they wish to have, that fuels their desire to risk their lives to come to America.

[irish guard]

Check this out..... http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/916391/posts sorry I am html impaired, but I don't think the federal judge that sentenced Richard Reid made up his comments about freedom....or if he did, count hiim on the stupid side too.....but please read this thread and then see what you think about freedom.

[Quix]

Having lived for long periods of time in another unfree society . . .

I disagree.

Freedom is very concrete to even those who dream of it.

They experience it's opposite in 100's of ways daily and dream of the concrete, tangible, experiential opposite of what they daily experience--and many are willing to die for it if the odds look remotely promising. That's what Tienanmen was about.

Granted, some have their heads in the clouds about it and are naive, or ignorant about how to bring the hay out of the loft down to the cows that need to eat it. But even the lofty muddle-headed ones have SOME concrete appreciation for freedom.

Most now have more freedom to eat more food--and they certainly consider THAT very concrete--and a very high priority--being Chinese and all.

I understand your point about abstractions. I think there's a mostly minor validity to it on the part of some people PARTIALLY in some contexts about SOME freedoms. It think it's NOT so true 100% across the board etc.

I don't know if Moslems hate us because we are free or not. They hate us because they consider us a threat and an affront to their religion and their demonic moon god. I suppose in a sense, they hate us because we are free to do some quasi attractive things that they are forbidden to do. And, I suspect they may hate us because we threaten their tyranny with our freedoms.

Some Christians sadly hate homosexuals vs hating the sin. Some hate both. Hate is an equal opportunity evil.