Posted on 07/31/2003 3:56:37 AM PDT by Kaslin
BANGKOK, Thailand (AP) - Ten Koreans, possibly from the communist North, sneaked into the Japanese Embassy in Bangkok on Thursday, diplomats said, apparently seeking political asylum.
The group - consisting of four men, four women, a boy and a girl - entered the embassy compound through a gate when it opened to let a car in, said embassy spokesman Toshihisa Takata. They passed beside the car shouting "North Korea" in English.
"They are safely in the building of the Japanese Embassy. We are now investigating their names and their wishes, those sorts of things," Takata told reporters.
He said they speak only Korean. "They don't speak Japanese or English but we are trying to communicate with them," he said.
"About whether or not they are trying to seek asylum we are investigating," Takata said.
A security guard stopped them inside the gate and they were escorted into the building where they were later provided lunch.
"It seems to me their health condition is normal and they seem to be reasonably relaxed at the moment," Takata said, adding that he doesn't know how long they had been in Thailand.
In the past, North Koreans have attempted to sprint into Japanese missions in China to seek political refuge.
In Tokyo, the national Kyodo News, citing unnamed sources, said the Foreign Ministry was cautioning embassies and consulates abroad that people who have fled from North Korea may be asking for protection.
In March, four people, all apparently from North Korea, entered the Japanese School in China's capital carrying letters asking for Tokyo's help in seeking asylum.
In May last year, five asylum-seeking North Koreans dashed into a Japanese consulate in the northeastern Chinese city of Shenyang and were forcibly removed by Chinese authorities. The incident spurred recriminations between Beijing and Tokyo.
Scores of North Korean asylum-seekers have sought refuge in foreign missions in China over past years.
As its biggest ally, China has a treaty with Pyongyang requiring it to send back any illegal escapees. Yet, it hasn't always done so in cases that have become public for fear of international backlash, and many asylum-seekers have eventually made their way to South Korea via third countries.
But we can talk about crowded buses.
America can spill all its blood and treasure to buy freedom for Korea and Japan, but the Japanese ride crowded buses, so we can't expect anything from the Japanese...and to expect the Koreans (whose economy grows faster than ours, and has a large and well-equipeed military) to do their duty is also unreasonable for some reason that also goes unexplained.
All I can conclude is that there is something personal at stake, and this discussion has nothing to do with broader issues of locating NK refugees. Who knows...
Stop commenting without reading the posts...there are FReepers who can do that, but you aren't cool enough by half.
All of these "mysteriously unexplained" things you keep running your mouth about have been discussed.
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The South Korean and Japanese governments make no effort to help North Koreans fleeing from their own personal hell. Any assistance is punished by either the Chinese of NK authorities when discovered. There are several thousand Chinese of Korean descent whose job it is to hunt these people down, arrest them, and send them back to NK for execution or torture.
Anyone who aids these people does so at great personal risk, something the SK and Japanese governments are not interested in for whatever reason, though there are numerous private organisations that do help (as AiT mentioned). SK and Japan, though great and beautiful nations, do not have nearly the degree of freedom that we have here. The United States is the land of liberty and opportunity, and I believe, the freest nation on earth bar none. Let me tell you how.
In South Korea, there is little effort given to stopping North Korean agents from moving about freely. Often as not, they are SK liberals who have starry-eyed dreams about reunification...under the flag of the DPRK. North Koreans are not allowed to speak out against the regime in South Korea, a part of the bass-ackwards "Sunshine Policy." When they do speak out, they or a family member sometimes accidentally end up dead.
It is also widely known that NK is just looking for any reason to attack the south. Their economy is in the crapper and headed swiftly for the sceptic tank. Their power will only shrink with time, making it favorable to use it now while there is still time. SK knows this as well. SK also knows that there literally thousands of modern and semi-modern pieces of artillery hidden all along the DMZ, enough to completely level Seoul in under 10 minutes from the first shell fired. Irregardless of any nuclear threat, this is something we couldn't stop, and would likely kill millions before the guns could be silenced. This is, of course, heaped on top of the fact that the SK government is a nest of hippie losers who think that if they "play nice" with crazy Kim they can all be friends, pass the bong, and sing peace songs around a campfire. They haven't the mettle to help themselves, much less deperate North Koreans.
As for the Japanese helping, there is a two-fold problem: 1) Yes, the Japanese are somewhat leery of foriegners. They aren't as bad as some folks though, and certainly better than my "dear old grandpa", who was in the KKK. Japanese might not be welcoming, but they won't try to kill you either. The world has plenty of morons to go around, but it isn't the deciding factor.
2) Many Koreans, whether just or not, have a deep and abiding hatred for Japan. SKs are more reasonable, but they haven't been brainwashed. NKs are taught from childhood that the Japanese are devils, and that most of their problems are the result of the Japanese occupation. Those determined to be "colaborators" are killed, and their descendents imprisoned or murdered to the third generation, and the survivors are assigned one of the lowest levels in the 51-level social hierarchy system. This means no rations ever in a country where 80% of the populations exhibit signs of starvation.
This has a way of being counterproductive when a brave Japanese person risks life and limb to help, and is then treated like a monster. This is obviously problematic.
Then there is the overarcing threat of North Korea's nuclear arsenal. They will always think twice about attacking us, especially when the only juicy targets are Hawaii, Alaska, and West Coast cities like SF. We would erase them from the face of the earth instantly. SK and Japan are different. We might retaliate against a nuke attack on our allies, but then we might chicken out and simply act "very disappointed." The Japanese and SK comprehend how fickle our leaders can be.
Moreover, any move that these two governments have made in the past has been heralded by NK as a sign of emminent invasion, followed by many threats and warnings involving hyperbole like "seas of fire" and similar nonsense. NK leadership being as loony as it is, though, it will give pause to any reasonable Japanese or SK government. Is it worth helping refugees if it might cost Tokyo or Seoul?
We have therefore come full circle. You want to know why I think you are advocating sending NKers back to hell. It goes something like this--without any help, most NKs have to find a way to blend in long enough to get to a friendly embassy, counsulate, or border while not knowing Mandarin, being dressed like a hobo, and looking like a Holocaust survivor. This generally involves depending on the kindness of strangers for food, shelter, clothing, and transport. Where this is not available, NKers live in the wild in holes and lean-tos in a strange land while traveling thousands of miles on foot. They usually suffer from frostbite and malnutrition. They are already sickly to beginwith, looking like dwarves compared to Chinese natives--they are a foot shorter on average compared to South Koreans with similar genetic heritage).
With odds like this, most die from exposure or starvation or are rounded up and sent back to North Korea. Very few have ever been seen again, much less get to make a second attempt. Their only hope is for someone to raise hell about it. SK and Japan can't or won't. That leaves us.
I remember reading a story about a French UN peacekeeper in Rwanda being "horrified" about the things he saw. He says that while he was on guard duty, which implies he had a loaded weapon, one of the warring tribes attacked the town where his post was located. A woman came running to him, begging him to protect her, and he stood there and watched a man hack her to pieces with a machete not ten feet away. Why didn't he protect her, you ask. Why didn't he at least threaten the goon, or hold her in his arms? Or just shoot the b*stard? He didn't have orders to do that, you see.
We have been blessed with prosperity and power--the mightiest force the world has ever known. Yet we watch this hideous evil before our very eyes. We don't want to be bothered, we don't want to get in trouble, we want to be safe and left alone. I'm not talking about opening fire yet, just hold the woman in your arms and see if the sword wielding yahoo is brave enough to fight a man. When we do nothing, we are the Frenchman.
Think about that.
The sensible answer--see to it that SKorea --and, to a lesser extent, Japan--steps up and take responsibility and cleans up their act. They can (they are rich and well-armed), they should , and they'll all be better off for it. Roh is a silly man, and malleable. This would not be all that hard. Let Rumsfeld handle it--he's already shown the backbone for dealing with SKorea.
I presume that your answer is to play hero in your own mind and single-handedly relieve SKorea of the problem. This may be a romantic notion.
Today's news, BTW--we're moving 6000 troops out of Seoul shortly, to leave 1000. Likely that 1000 are not going to be very visible.
Pat has a history of making comments which are IMO contrary to the nature of liberty and individual dignity. Make up your own mind, by all means:
"There were no politics to polarize us then, to magnify every slight. The 'negroes' of Washington had their public schools, restaurants, bars, movie houses, playgrounds and churches; and we had ours."
Right from the Beginning, p. 131)
In a memo to President Nixon, Buchanan suggested that "integration of blacks and whites -- but even more so, poor and well-to-do -- is less likely to result in accommodation than it is in perpetual friction, as the incapable are placed consciously by government side by side with the capable." Washington Post, 1/5/92
"Rail as they will about 'discrimination,' women are simply not endowed by nature with the same measures of single-minded ambition and the will to succeed in the fiercely competitive world of Western capitalism." (syndicated column, 11/22/83)
In a review of a book on Hitler, Pat says:
"Those of us in childhood during the war years were introduced to Hitler only as caricature. Either he was a ranting, raving, carpet-chewing Chaplinesque buffoon -- or the anti-Christ, Satan Incarnate, a devil without human attribute who had hypnotized the German people. Such ignorance is folly. Though Hitler was indeed racist and anti-Semitic to the core, a man who without compunction could commit murder and genocide, he was also an individual of great courage, a soldier's soldier in the Great War, a political organizer of the first rank, a leader steeped in the history of Europe, who possessed oratorical powers that could awe even those who despised him. But Hitler's success was not based on his extraordinary gifts alone. His genius was an intuitive sense of the mushiness, the character flaws, the weakness masquerading as morality that was in the hearts of the statesmen who stood in his path.
See also the page of "Radio Islam", which admiringly quotes Buchanan's anti-Israel and rants against Jews: See here. Anyone who shouts that "Free trade is the philosophy of nations on the way down", as Pat did to a group in New Hampshire, is a person who has not only no understanding of economics, but also certainly would lead the nation to ruin. No conservative, he.
Perhaps SKorea just hasn't had the opportunity to prove itself. Their military is quite impressive--without American bodies held hostage at the border, the SKoreans must mature.
Now, this is interesting. For one thing, it's their problem to deal with, and the reason that they don't deal with it is that they expect us to, because we have for the past fifty years. Go do a google on SK's military--it's not at all shabby. That's why they could have helped out a little with Iraq, IMO.
Do you see the parallel with Little Junior, and Dad?
Does it occur to you that if we can kick Kim's behind, what's to stop us from kicking SK's and Japan's to do the job for themselves?
I don't think there was any contradiction, although I might not have expressed myself as well as I should.
There are more opportunities here, and more ways an immigrant could succeed, and I have no problems with someone who wants to move to our country, work hard, and contribute. My problem is with those who want to use what our country has to offer, but contribute little or nothing.
Without the socialist nature of some of our laws, my problem would not exist.
Now since Japan has the equivalent of 50% of the US pop crammed into a land mass the same size as Montana, you really do have to allow that Japan is relatively crowded. I'm afraid the pictures you saw are representative snapshots of daily life in many parts of Japan.
In truth, though, Japan's density is not all that different from many parts of asia --the Gobi Desert be damned. Japan is substantially less crowded than Singapore, for example. While you have there a strikingly different form of government than in the US (no bubble gum, etc.), you have a similar grass-roots tolerance of ethnic differences; Indians, whites, and Malays abound. A whole panoply of peoples peacefully carve out a living, side by side. This kind of thing is true for many parts of Asia.
Japan is different.
You have an explosion of foreign influences, yes. You have a high standard of living, yes. You have an incurable affection for technology, yes.
But western people? No. Large numbers of foreigners here for good? Again, no.
And non-Japanese Asians living here face rough sledding. The Japanese will take them as bar hostesses and prostitutes --Japan needs those in great numbers, because you if you can't speak honestly to your boss at work, and finally go home to your spouse who lords over you, you build up a lot of stress.
It needs to come come out, somehow, right?
Oh, wait. There is one more group of foreigners the Japanese system needs quite badly:
PROFESSIONAL APOLOGISTS.
Professional apologists plying threadbare "race cards."
Are the Ainu still treated as they were a few years back? Perhaps the Japanesee might be willing to set up some NK refugee camps near their villages.
Wonder if our apologists could even bear to write the name of these shunned citizens...much less supply photos.
But interesting just how a photo of a crowded transport was supposed to end all discussion of Japan taking some responsibility here. Wouldn't be too hard to find similar transports (and emergency rooms) in the US--only the faces wouldn't be absolutely and utterly homogenous.
Feel free to explain this connection with the NK refugees anytime, if you can stop your giggling long enough to make any sense.
And if our generous immigration laws were enforced, there wouldn't be such a strain social resources. Immigrants would enter in an orderly and stable fashion, encountering more welcome and less anxiety. They could legally acquire documentation that would put then in the "grid" of the mainstream--taxes, jobs, and that peculiar thing that is disrupting us everywhere--insurance of all types; health, auto, etc.
As it is, the taxpaying citizen is made not only the bearer of a great burden due to unenforcement--but finds himself accused of spurious charges of racism for resisting new immigration on top of what is already happening.
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